About time, too....

[angr607]

Sorry to restart this thread but having been made aware of this thread, I feel it's time for the Manufacturer to have his say!

I have a couple of things to say and make clear. First, Narrow Planet and Bowaters Models are two completely separate organizations. Both are run by completely different people and have completely different structures/organization behind the scenes. Bowaters Models simply lists our own products on the Narrow Planet Website in addition to our own. Now that's made clear, time to start talking FR/WHR.

For those who say Bowaters Models hasn't done our research, how wrong you are especially to imply shortsightedness on our part. We just haven't used this forum for that purpose. Maybe we will in future as we have lots planned and on the way. We choose the FR over the WHR simply due to the sheer number of FR prototypes that have become available over time from mainly Roundhouse, Accucraft and others. Also, this isn't helped by the complete lack of technical data for the WHR coaches in the public domain. We've been looking for as long as we have for our FR coaches with no or very few results. Lots of photographs, not a lot of drawings which is what we need. Comments about being ignored by the FR/WHR also apply to us. We've had no help from them whatsoever, however, we do have sources who are doing their best to help. And we thank them for that. We advertise our FR coaches as for both railways because they operate on both since the two were joined up! This isn't false advertising as has been implied, but fact.

For those who claim some manufacturers don't listen, again, how wrong you are. We have always held a policy of listening to requests and in fact, some of our upcoming kits is directly being produced because of such requests. I have not had a single request for WHR Modern Coaches from anyone since we first went public with our FR coaches over 2 years ago until I got directed to this forum by a customer yesterday. Now if you are so desperate for these coaches, why has no one asked us? We've had nothing sent to Bowaters Models' Facebook or e-mail addresses about this. And I'm 100% certain Steve at Narrow Planet will pass on anything for me from the Narrow Planet address for my attention.

Now, there will be some who say, 'there are loads of these engines. Why aren't you supporting them'. Time for a lesson in 16mm sales. Just because an engine exists, doesn't mean the stock will sell. For example, our Bowaters kits which were the ones which launched us into the world of 16mm. I can literally count the orders on one hand. But there are loads of the Bowaters engines (Leader, Superior and Excelsior) out there so surely we should have loads of sales? Nope. Doesn't work like that. Just because one person says you'll sell loads doesn't mean we will. In fact, we won't. The exceptions to the rule have been our FR coaches.

I hope that answers some of the points raised in this thread. For those who are wondering, yes, we are expanding our range. Expect further details at Exeter. Yes, there is a chance we will look at WHR again once our current plans are all out the way. However, this won't be until early 2018 at the earliest. I can also 100% confirm if we do, we will NOT be covering 2100 or 2101 (the two observation coaches) due to technical reasons. If you have any comments, please don't hesitate to get in touch and those who are desperate for these coaches, PLEASE get in touch so we can talk about it.

Kind Regards,

Jon Reeves, Owner
Bowaters Models
jon@bowatersmodels.co.uk

 

[tac foley]

Thank you for your fulsome response. I have to admit that it comes as something of a surprise to me to learn that you hadn't thought of using this, the largest of all UK fora concerning 16mm and other scale garden railways, as a sounding board for new proposing new products. I guess that admission alone might serve to justify at least part of my comments in the the original post. Seems its not just the preservation groups that ignore us, right?

My confusion arises from the shared advertisement - I think that I might be justified in imagining that the two companies shared interests, after all you share the same advertising block on the page. For those, who like me, had never heard of you, that alone might be cause for some confunglement.

I guess that most of my points I had made still stand. As a group of people with money to spend, often, a lot of money to spend, it is poor business practice for a company not to go looking for new business that will not only boost sales of their products, but satisfy the needs of the keen purchaser. From my standpoint, although I love my Garratt dearly, I would have had serious second thoughts about buying it if I'd had any inkling that ten years later, we would STILL be without a reasonably-priced passenger coach to go behind it, let alone the ballast cars and brake vans.

I therefore make no apologies for my post, made in good faith as I saw it. Props to you for going public with the rationale behind your sales policies, though.

You make 'em and I'll buy 'em.

I can't be fairer than that.

tac
Ottawa Valley GRS [ovgr.org]

 

[stockers]

Thanks for the explanation Jon. Having dabbled in the Resin building market, I can concur - the market for any individual model is not that large.

 

[jameshilton]

Good reply Jon

Tac, I'll amdit it's a while since I posted on here, however I always thought this was largely a G-scale forum, rather than 16mm?
I've spoken to Jon many times in the past, and found him to be knowledgeable, passionate and honest - and I'm looking forward to seeing what his plans are for Bowaters in the coming months

 

[tac foley]

If this is ALL G scale then why is there a live-steam section? Or an any other scale section?

Or am I just in the wrong forum altogether? AFAIAA, Bowaters is a group of paper-makers, not modellers, and it comes as a complete surprise to me to learn otherwise. I looked up their website and learned that they have many plans, including rolling stock for the Sandy River & Rangely Lakes lines in Maine. With the recent introduction of the Accucraft 7/8th scale Forney, this will be popular over the way, I'm sure. Here in UK, the Brecon Mountain Railway, which already runs a Pacific Maine-like loco, has plans to build a replication of #24, the 2ft gauge Prairie. The short van is already on their running roster. Bowaters will, of course, be offering their models in 16mm scale for those folks who might have either the RH #24 or the Forney.

Anyhow, I'm not here to argue with you or anybody else, friend, so having started this thread up, and learned a lot, I'll bow out.

tac

 

[playmofire]

Thanks for the explanation Jon. Having dabbled in the Resin building market, I can concur - the market for any individual model is not that large.

As in lots of things, we tend to think we are the norm.

 

[playmofire]

If this is ALL G scale then why is there a live-steam section? Or an any other scale section?


tac

Good reply Jon

... however I always thought this was largely a G-scale forum, rather than 16mm?

 

[stockers]

Many G scalers run live steam of one scale or another. The division between 16mm and G is becoming blurred anyway and I think that's a good thing. We are all in it together and can always learn from what others are doing.
As has been alluded to earlier, we are a relatively small group , so why splinter in to smaller bits. That just makes our manufacturers job harder.

 

[PhilP]

Many G scalers run live steam of one scale or another. The division between 16mm and G is becoming blurred anyway and I think that's a good thing. We are all in it together and can always learn from what others are doing.
As has been alluded to earlier, we are a relatively small group , so why splinter in to smaller bits. That just makes our manufacturers job harder.

Amen!

 

[maxi-model]

I am coming to the conclusion that the term "16 mm" has become a misnomer, except in certain specific cases. It now seems to relate to those in the hobby with a preference for live steam or battery operation on scales from 7/8" inch to 1:24 and all points between. Rarely do I see "Finescale" 16 mm operators with "prototypical" locos and consists on "correctly" gauged tracks at meeting and shows labeled as such. And long may this continue as it allows what is the niche end of a niche hobby to survive and indeed grow. Max

p.s I run DC, live steam and battery, nominally Fn3 and 16 mm

 

[angr607]

If this is ALL G scale then why is there a live-steam section? Or an any other scale section?

Or am I just in the wrong forum altogether? AFAIAA, Bowaters is a group of paper-makers, not modellers, and it comes as a complete surprise to me to learn otherwise. I looked up their website and learned that they have many plans, including rolling stock for the Sandy River & Rangely Lakes lines in Maine. With the recent introduction of the Accucraft 7/8th scale Forney, this will be popular over the way, I'm sure. Here in UK, the Brecon Mountain Railway, which already runs a Pacific Maine-like loco, has plans to build a replication of #24, the 2ft gauge Prairie. The short van is already on their running roster. Bowaters will, of course, be offering their models in 16mm scale for those folks who might have either the RH #24 or the Forney.

Anyhow, I'm not here to argue with you or anybody else, friend, so having started this thread up, and learned a lot, I'll bow out.

tac

Hi Tac,

I will at this point out, other than name, there is no connection between Bowaters Paper Makers and Bowaters Models. The name is the only link and was chosen based on our initial range of products. With regards to our 'poor business practises', you will struggle to find a manufacturer on each and every garden railway forum. I know I'm on 3 and there's probably more than that! In fact, Bowaters is unusual in that we are on multiple! Most only stick to one normally facebook these days.

The point about looking for new business is something we do anyway. Why do you think we even began looking at the FR in the first place. We look for gaps and fill them. As a result, we have a to-do list that grows by the week at the moment based on feedback from other people and our own research. WHR is an area massively lacking at the moment but until the FR decide they want to help, getting the data is proving very difficult if not impossible. That said, there are ways of doing it and once the current backlog is out the way (probably early 2018 design wise), I might look into it again.

You mention suitable rolling stock, and I say. Give me time. South African Railways is again something on the to do list. Seeing as I used to do a SAR range in 4mm, scaling up is a no brainer.

I will be in touch with admins soon about posting here because having not used the forum in such a long time (I use 32mm these days), not overly sure how to do it so expect some posts from Bowaters Models soon (hopefully).

Kind Regards,

Jon