21480 at Maerklin for repair; seeking your background thoughts/advice

[RH Prague]

I've sent my 21480 2-10-2 to Maerklin in Goppingen for repair under guarantee. The dialogue is interesting, and I'm sure it will help me if some of you will throw in your thoughts on what's going on.
You'll need the background; fiirst the initial problems

* I bought it in April 2022 (new, from Peyker in Austria). At first perfect. Then sometimes a minor irritation: when I placed it on the track, one of the "next station" sounds would go off involuntarily.
* Last season it got worse, sometimes that particular sound would go off while it was running. At the same time, the smoke generator output gradually weakened, so that less and finally nothing came out of the chimney, only around the valve gear. So I thought that since it's under guarantee I'll get them to fix it.
* There is though no Maerklin authorised service centre in CZ. But there is one just across the border in Stollberg, where, by coincidence my niece lives and works. So I took it there in January.
* Communication with that place was a bit difficult but they have a long history so I trusted them, even though when I got it back there was no written indication of what they'd actually done. (My niece's Mum brought it back as she had been up there)

Things then turn worse, the first time I put it on the track.

* Immediately the whistle blows.I can't stop it, and it's loud. But at the same time, the loco doesn't move. I take it off the track. Shut down everything and restart.
* Put it back on track. Same result only now smoke starts billowing but only from the valve gear. Then I smell burning. I whip it off the track and see that the burning is coming from around one contact shoe. I've seen enough, wonder what on earth the service centre is playing at, and get on with trying to contact Maerklin directly.
* everything else on the railway is functioning normally, including the Harz T3 railcar which also has a very sophisticated sound module

Hope it helps if I break this up into two posts, part 2 is what Maerklin are now saying...

 

[RH Prague]

* Maerklin customer service is a bit..well, never mind. They did contact Junghanns in Stollberg for a report. Mr Junghanns said that they had replaced the smoke generator, then he had tested it using "a Maerklin C3, and with an Ecos Zentrale" and everything functioned perfectly. But Mr Frank Mayer at Maerklin agreed that I could return it directly to them for further inspection in the light of what had happened.
* As of today it is in the hands of the repair dept and they have responded quickly. Here is their reply in full, translated

We have tested your locomotive extensively.
The smoke generator, driving sound and all other functions work as they should.
We assume that there is a short circuit because a contact shoe has burnt into the gearbox frame.
We suspect that this was caused by a driving device and booster with a high amperage through your system.
Could you tell us how many amps your Massoth command station has available and whether you have additional boosters or similar in operation?
(As all Märklin digital central units have a maximum of 5 amps available and such a short circuit is therefore hardly possible)
We will of course repair the defective gear frame and wiper free of charge.
In order to narrow down the fault further, I would ask you to give us more information about your layout or command station.
As we are unable to reproduce any of the faults you have described and the locomotive has no fault with Märklin command stations.

I have quickly responded to them making the following points:

* Fotos of my Massoth Dimax 1210Z and 1200T and LGB 50110 transformer.
* No booster, I would not need one. While the Dimax can deliver 12 amps, it never needs it, I run a max of two locos at a time and currently pointwork and other electrical stuff are operated analogue.
* I have 12 other locos and they have all been running both before and after the blow-up of the 21480 perfectly normally, and that includes the powerful Harz T3 railcar.

So that's where we are at present. Of course it's always difficult with any tech problem where the technicians cannot reproduce the fault themselves. But at this end, the variable is this loco. Everything else is fine, and has been since the digital system was installed in 2018 ( and by the local retailer whom I regularly use). And I am pretty sure there is nothing at all remarkable about my set-up, the proof is in the more or less faultless operation of all those locos.

Nevertheless your thoughts will be much appreciated and may help me in my dialogue with the Maerklin techies.

 

[PhilP]

My thoughts and suspicions are a pickup problem caused the latest damage.

I have seen many motor-blocks, where the area around the skate has melted.

My theory is that contamination of the wheel - backs, the grease internally breaking down releasing oils, acts as an insulator.
The skates then have to pass most of the current, and this relies on the spring and metal shims in the block, making good contact (just by the pressure from the spring).
The current is being carried by the light-gauge metal of that coil spring, and it gets hot.

I wonder if there was an initial problem with the smoke unit? - Why would the first repair centre swap an expensive unit, if not?

The damage when returned to you, could be bad luck?
Something could have moved in transit, perhaps? A carbon brush could have jammed, do not contributing to current collection, again perhaps?

The fact Marklin have taken ownership of the damage, and are going to replace the parts, is the best outcome you can hope for.

I can't prove any of the above, but it seems a plausible explanation.

PhilP

 

[RH Prague]

My thoughts and suspicions are a pickup problem caused the latest damage.

I have seen many motor-blocks, where the area around the skate has melted.

My theory is that contamination of the wheel - backs, the grease internally breaking down releasing oils, acts as an insulator.
The skates then have to pass most of the current, and this relies on the spring and metal shims in the block, making good contact (just by the pressure from the spring).
The current is being carried by the light-gauge metal of that coil spring, and it gets hot.

I wonder if there was an initial problem with the smoke unit? - Why would the first repair centre swap an expensive unit, if not?

The damage when returned to you, could be bad luck?
Something could have moved in transit, perhaps? A carbon brush could have jammed, do not contributing to current collection, again perhaps?

The fact Marklin have taken ownership of the damage, and are going to replace the parts, is the best outcome you can hope for.

I can't prove any of the above, but it seems a plausible explanation.

PhilP

Thanks, PhilP , as you say, all of those things sound plausible; although the transit explanation is a tough one to accept. It was of course in its original box, my niece's Mum took it to her car and then to her place, and I picked it up from her. As such that transit was almost risk free, compared to the one by parcel to Gottingen when it passed through something like 6 distribution centres en- route.

The only other thing I'd say is that the motor-block melt-down happened in a matter of seconds during which time the loco did not actually move.

Do you (anybody) have a view on their suggestion that my Massoth set-up might somehow be at fault, or have I successfully demonstrated that logically there's no reason to blame it?

 

[PhilP]

Do you (anybody) have a view on their suggestion that my Massoth set-up might somehow be at fault, or have I successfully demonstrated that logically there's no reason to blame it?

Well I can't 'see' your Central Station..

But you can set the limit for current protection to operate at.
If your CS is set for 12Amps, then it will happily supply up to this without shutting down.

If you only tend to run a couple of loco's at once, I would definitely consider checking this setting, and reducing it to (say) 5Amps.


I don't believe the equipment was at fault.
But believe that the current setting was / is too generous, and this contributed to the damage.

PhilP

 

[Diesel2000]

FWIW I had the smoke generator on my 21480 fail within the first year. Rather than send it to Marklin USA for warranty repair and wait however long, possibly then on to Germany I just decided to buy a replacement smoke generator for $60 and install it myself. When the generator failed the chuff stopped working because the wheel sensor passes through the generator before going to the decoder. If the power to the generator does not work then there is no chuff, so its a pretty integral part to the steam locomotives functioning and is a bit a weak point. Pretty much all the steamers LGB is making are configured this way now.

I use a Massoth booster along with my CS3, so this gives me pause to redivide my layout power blocks so I have no more than 6 amps available to any one area. Full 12 amps can be pretty catastrophic with shorts.

 

[RH Prague]

Maerklin have swiftly replied:

We have now also tested the locomotive with the Massoth control center operated by you.
Here, too, none of the faults you described can be detected.
The locomotive does what it is supposed to do.
We will now return the repaired locomotive to you in perfect condition.
Should further problems occur, you could contact the builder of your layout.
The fault may lie here. Of course, it would be ideal if you were to operate our locomotives with Märklin products.
The Central Station 3 from Märklin, for example, has a maximum of 5 amps available (which would be sufficient for the operation you have described) and switches off automatically in the event of an overload (which would have prevented this short circuit). As you are using a third-party control station, we cannot provide any information on this.
If you have any questions, please contact Massoth.
The locomotive has been fully tested ( Märklin, Ecos, Massoth command stations and analog ) and found to be in good working order.

Well, I have to accept that from their POV they have done all they reasonably can do. However I'm obviously wary that the moment I put it on the track, the loco will get fried again. But if it's possible to set the amperage to 5amps max, as you suggest, PhilP that ought to limit the danger and be a workable solution overall. I'v never seen any loco use up more than 1.9amps anywhere on my layout. As a boots and braces safety measure I might get in contact with the one modeller I know locally and ask if we can run it at his place first. He's got a wonderful railway and knows his stuff technically.

I suppose if Maerklin are right, the short-circuit occurred at the first moment when I puit it on the track and the whistle started blowing. That is one loud whistle to blow continuously for 10 seconds or more, so I suppose that could have created a surge. But it still bothers me, why just this loco, which clearly previously had a defect, with the smoke generator.

 

[Tanker man]

Just a thought, one of the UK retailers recently posted ( somewhere!) that you should never put a loco on to ‘live’ track but should turn off the power , carefully place the loco on the track then , when you are sure that all of the wheels and contacts are where they are supposed to be, turn the power back on.
Not sure if this helps
Cheers
Dave

 

[RH Prague]

Of course if anyone know off the top of their heads the procedure for changing the amperage settings in my Dimax, I'd be very grateful for the short-cut to finding this out. I generally find Massoth documentation hard to get to grips with.

 

[Diesel2000]

Of course if anyone know off the top of their heads the procedure for changing the amperage settings in my Dimax, I'd be very grateful for the short-cut to finding this out. I generally find Massoth documentation hard to get to grips with.

Pages 17/18 of the 1210 manual

 

[RH Prague]

I thank you, sir Diesel2000

 

[mike]

I've had a spring melt before, and upon inspection, it was acting as a heating element,melting the gearbox, using a massoth 1200 , nav ect , set to 7amps..after this I took advice and turn the power off now before placing a loco on the track .not happen since, touch wood,

 

[RH Prague]

I've had a spring melt before, and upon inspection, it was acting as a heating element,melting the gearbox, using a massoth 1200 , nav ect , set to 7amps..after this I took advice and turn the power off now before placing a loco on the track .not happen since, touch wood,

I had never heard this advice before but now I think about it, it makes perfect sense. Some locos, including this one, but particularly my Saxon Mallett, are very fiddly to place on the track "cleanly". A Stainz, no problem. I'll follow that advice from now on. I see that my Dimax offers 7amps and 4 amps as the max. setting. I think I'll start with 4!

 

[Keith RhB]

A couple of thoughts/suggestions:

1) you mentioned you use the LGB 50110 transformer to feed your Massoth central station. That power supply only puts out 5A so it’s not too much…but it’s certainly enough to melt things that are shorted. I would check the short/shutdown time that is set on your central station and maybe shorten it a bit.

2) How often do you clean the wheels on your locos? The only times I’ve seen those sliders get hot enough to melt the housing is when too much currently is consistently put through them because the rest of the wheels aren’t doing their share of picking up power so too much goes through the sliders. Make sure all the wheels are picking up power by resting the loco upside down and using test leads on each axle at a time. Make sure there are no missing or worn out brushes.

 

[dunnyrail]

A couple of thoughts/suggestions:

1) you mentioned you use the LGB 50110 transformer to feed your Massoth central station. That power supply only puts out 5A so it’s not too much…but it’s certainly enough to melt things that are shorted. I would check the short/shutdown time that is set on your central station and maybe shorten it a bit.

2) How often do you clean the wheels on your locos? The only times I’ve seen those sliders get hot enough to melt the housing is when too much currently is consistently put through them because the rest of the wheels aren’t doing their share of picking up power so too much goes through the sliders. Make sure all the wheels are picking up power by resting the loco upside down and using test leads on each axle at a time. Make sure there are no missing or worn out brushes.

Top advice re checking all wheels doing their pickup, so many times I have done just that check with dodgy running loco to find only one wheel picking up power 1 side, not even the slider all requiring remedial action.

 

[meiningen8]

A couple of thoughts/suggestions:

1) you mentioned you use the LGB 50110 transformer to feed your Massoth central station. That power supply only puts out 5A so it’s not too much…but it’s certainly enough to melt things that are shorted. I would check the short/shutdown time that is set on your central station and maybe shorten it a bit.

2) How often do you clean the wheels on your locos? The only times I’ve seen those sliders get hot enough to melt the housing is when too much currently is consistently put through them because the rest of the wheels aren’t doing their share of picking up power so too much goes through the sliders. Make sure all the wheels are picking up power by resting the loco upside down and using test leads on each axle at a time. Make sure there are no missing or worn out brushes.

I thought the LGB 50110 only pumped out AC my Massoth is fed with DC from a Massoth powe supply

 

[Software Tools]

I thought the LGB 50110 only pumped out AC my Massoth is fed with DC from a Massoth powe supply

Early versions of the Massoth Central Station could be fed with low voltage AC or DC (I suspect that this was to ease the transition for existing LGB MTS users), but later Massoth CSs were DC power input only. I can confirm that it is indeed possible to run a DC input Massoth CS from a LGB 5A transformer provided an external bridge rectifier is inserted between the LGB transformer and the Massoth CS.

LGB has never made a stand-alone transformer with a current rating higher than 5A so using one is only useful with DCC if you only run a small setup with just a few locos and DCC accessories at the the same time.

 

[RH Prague]

Belatedly I think I owe everyone an update, and I'm pleased to say it's very much a happy ending, although I'm curious as to what you guys make of what the Maerklin techies actually did. It is now running exactly as it should in every respect; smoke generator is perfect as you can see, and all of the sound work as they should. The overall performance, especially low speed control, is simply majestic. That part was true before, but when it is combined with the smoke and sounds working as they should, the overall improvement is pretty dramatic, for me anyway. I'm a sucker for sound, always have been since I was a kid. Mind you I may have to adjust the volume down. Some neighboursthink there's another vintage steam day up the road at our local station

In the foto you see the repair slip. The Google translator says:
Defective gearbox centre section,Gearbox cover, Pickup, spring and contact plates have been replaced, Decoder reset carried out.

Based on what happened, I think all the replacements were probably needed after the burn-out. The decoder reset, on the other hand, was probably needed from the start. I'd suggested that to the service guy in Stollberg but he only replaced the smoke generator. But as soon as I got it back, and put it on the track, it started smoking like crazy (he must have left liquid in it) and the burn-out happened immediately.

There is a small puzzle remaining from the Göppingen service guys. Somebody had carefully inserted these two items inside the loco's box, in the compartment which holds the magnets. Does anyone have an idea whether they really have something to do with thisvioulsy loco? Cannot imagine the wood does, and the black grill does not obviously fit on this loco.

Finally I adjusted the output of my LGB transformer down to 4A (the choice is 4 or 7A), only to discover from your later posts that it's probably unnecessary. I've notice though that since the change, if a loco derails the Massoth system will go to Stop mode almost straight away. I suppose better safe than sorry.

 

[Gerard]

I am happy for R H Prague that his loc is running smoothly again.
But i'm still puzzled about the reason why the burn happened when putting the loc on the rail.
I tested my system (Zimo MX10) and found out that all active decoder functions prior to lifting an active running loc are still working when placing the loc back on the track again. The same appears to be the case when powering up after a track short circuit.
This means that after lifting a loc one must always shut down all active functions from the previous active decoder. Normally I only shut down the speed control leaving only the lights burning.
But when a smoke generator is active using a relatively high power level that function should be the first to be shut down on the controller !
Off course when the smoke controller and may be even the speed controller are both still at a high level than a large current will be asked and running via the first point of contact when the loc is manually put back again on the track. This explains the burning of the wire/holder of the slider that made the first contact.

I think the "lessons learned" from this accident are:
1 put your locos preferably on track prior to turning on the power ,
2 if a loc is derailed or manually lifted while power is on, then put the function controllers of that loc at zero before replacing the loc on the track.
My conclusion: it looks like the accident was not caused by any fault in equipment but caused by not correctly setting the controls.

Leaving me with one remaining question:
Why is there no automatic shut down of the speed and smoke controllers of a loc when the trackpower is shut off?
Such a feature would also be handy when there is a power shutoff of the track due to derailing of two or more locs running on each other.
Often all trains involved start to run again as soon as the power is on again.
Or is it possible to lower all controllers during the trackpower shut off ?
I'll have to test that first thing in the morning!