What ‘scale’ is 1:22.5?

PhilP

PhilP

G Scale, 7/8th's, Electronics
5 Jun 2013
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Tamworth, Staffs.
I have just been quoted, by a small-scale railway modeller, that his models (two different layouts) are On24 and On42.5.

In this case, the numbers represent the 1:1 track-gauge in inches. - The rest gets confuddling! o_O
 
tac foley

tac foley

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I think the 16mm SCALE 32/45 GAUGE came about because of the readily available LGB Track. A lot of garden railway folk started with an LGB starter set and evolved from there.
Ah, not really. Narrow gauge-style garden railways came about because of the vast amount of 0 gauge track around the UK. It is generally held that garden railway-ing, as we know it today, was a British idea. With such a huge historical legacy of narrow gauge railways in the UK, and in particular the 2-foot-ish stuff in Wales, the decision to use 0 gauge track - 32mm -was a no-brainer. With 32mm representing TWO feet, the resultant scale of 16mm to the foot was set in concrete. This gives a linear scale of 1:19th. although we don't commonly use that title, preferring to just call it 16 mil.

It's a fact that there ARE railways in the British Isles - and that includes the island of Ireland - that diverge from the usual two-foot gauge, although they are covered in real life by the Light Railways Acts.

The Welshpool and Llanfair and a couple of others, principally Whipsnade Zoo and Bowaters are 2ft 6in, and we tend to ignore that extra six inches. The Isle of Man and most of the Irish NG are three-foot, so they are modelled to the different scale of 1:20.3, just like the US Colorado NG, and therefore run on 45mm gauge track, which IS three feet in scale.

The odd model railway habit of mixing metrics is nothing new - 00 scale is 4mm to the foot, and British 0 scale is 1/43rd, or 7mm to the foot. The result of that is the Dinky Toy at a matching 1/43rd scale - THE definitive small scale for model road vehicles worldwide. (Thank you, Frank Hornby).

BTW, US 0 scale is 1/48th - an easy 1/4" to the foot - and European 0 scale is 1/45th...anybody's guess......?
 
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P

Paul M

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Ah, not really. Narrow gauge-style garden railways came about because of the vast amount of 0 gauge track around the UK. It is generally held that garden railway-ing, as we know it today, was a British idea. With such a huge historical legacy of narrow gauge railways in the UK, and in particular the 2-foot-ish stuff in Wales, the decision to use 0 gauge track - 32mm -was a no-brainer. With 32mm representing TWO feet, the resultant scale of 16mm to the foot was set in concrete. This gives a linear scale of 1:19th. although we don't commonly use that title, preferring to just call it 16 mil.

It's a fact that there ARE railways in the British Isles - and that includes the island of Ireland - that diverge from the usual two-foot gauge, although they are covered in real life by the Light Railways Acts.

The Welshpool and Llanfair and a couple of others, principally Whipsnade Zoo and Bowaters are 2ft 6in, and we tend to ignore that extra six inches. The Isle of Man and most of the Irish NG are three-foot, so they are modelled to the different scale of 1:20.3, just like the US Colorado NG, and therefore run on 45mm gauge track, which IS three feet in scale.

The odd model railway habit of mixing metrics is nothing new - 00 scale is 4mm to the foot, and British 0 scale is 1/43rd, or 7mm to the foot. The result of that is the Dinky Toy at a matching 1/43rd scale -
THE definitive small scale for model road vehicles worldwide. (Thank you, Frank Hornby). BTW, US 0 scale is 1/48th - an easy 1/4" to the foot, and European 0 scale is 1/45th...anybody's guess......?
Best description of the quirks of our hobby I've read.
 
dunnyrail

dunnyrail

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One of the simpler scales and gauges to use is with Modelling 3ft Gauge prototypes using 45mm Gauge Track. The scale converter is 15mm to the floor, all other considerations are irrelevant. I used this ‘scale’ some time back when into Irish Narrow Gauge Modelling, even Building by Scratch Methods a Diesel, Coach and sundry Wagons. Another Coach is still part Built using a Bachmann USA Coach Kit heavily modified. A Bachman 4-6-0 was also converted to a Tralee and Dingle 2-6-0 Tank using much Plasticard and bashing the front Bogie to be 2 wheels only.
 
John Solimine

John Solimine

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EDITED for clarity.

1:20.3 vs. 1:22.5 scale:
The car in the attached photos was described on Ebay as "Acucraft's prototype for their 1:20.3 scale D&RGW Long Caboose." The description followed with, "this is a custom built wooden model by Sheridan measuring 18 inches in length." Sheridan Models out of Austin, Texas was one of the first to offer high fidelity models in large scale. These kits were every bit as nice as Hartford Products kits. Both Sheridan and Bob Hartford were known to one another.

According to the Colorado Railroad Museum:
Getting down to the details. Cars 0586 through 0589 are referred to as "Twenty-Six Footers." Measurements are taken from the bodies length, less platforms. Their overall length is 30 feet. 26 feet in 1:20.3 scale converts to ~15 3/8 inches and 30 feet converts to ~17 3/4 inches.

The 18 inch measurement in the Ebay ad was taken coupler to coupler, instead of the accepted method of overall frame length, as in a 30 foot boxcar, a 40 foot boxcar, etc. This is indeed a 1: 22.5 scale model. Coupled to an Accucraft 1:20.3 box car, the difference in scales is obvious. For example, the "catwalks" should be equal in height.

G Scale is confusing. Included in G scale are 1:29 and 1:22.5 scales. 1:32 Scale is more properly known as Number One Scale and 1:20.3 scale is narrow gauge, less properly known as Fn3. The only commonality is that they all run on 45 millimeter gauge track.

Anyone need a very nice 1:22.5 scale D&RGW Caboose?
 

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tac foley

tac foley

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Hmmmmm, right now we are going out to do some going-back-to-school shopping with GD, but I have the Accucraft BRASS caboose and a Bachmann spectrum caboose with complete interior right here with me to measure. I was totally unaware that Accucraft had produced a 'long' caboose' with full interior in ANY scale - the brass version is as empty as an idiot's smile, so you'll forgive me if I blink slightly at this one. I also have that same 1/20.3 box car to use as a comparison, as well as sundry measuring devices.

I'll be back.
 
voodoopenguin

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I admire the dedication by many modellers trying to keep within strict rules with their scales and love to see the fruits of their efforts. For myself I love 'playing trains' and had always been happy to mix things up when most of my hobby was in OO, happily running the wrong coaches with a particular loco. Now in G I can widen that mixture by adding in different scales as well oblivious (well almost) to the absurdity of it.

Paul
 
John Solimine

John Solimine

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Tac,

I edited my previous post. Hopefully, this clears up my description of the two different scales.

John
 
tac foley

tac foley

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QUOTE="tac foley, post: 566285, member: 3959"]
Hmmmmm, right now we are going out to do some going-back-to-school shopping with GD, but I have the Accucraft BRASS caboose and a Bachmann spectrum caboose with complete interior right here with me to measure. I was totally unaware that Accucraft had produced a 'long' caboose' with full interior in ANY scale - the brass version is as empty as an idiot's smile, so you'll forgive me if I blink slightly at this one. I also have that same 1/20.3 box car to use as a comparison, as well as sundry measuring devices.

I'll be back.
[/QUOTE]
Tac,

I edited my previous post. Hopefully, this clears up my description of the two different scales.

John

Gotcha - I don't have the longer Sheridan van, but I DO have the shortie, centre-cupola version which also has the full interior - IF you paid the extra $100 like I did. Mine came from Phil Dipple of Phil's Narrow Gauge stuff.

131782_9091f699e51cc633e9910dccc1a7383d.png
131784_ffb3738ccff7c5ffc13bdc34d75e5e9a.png


BTW, Fn3 stands for Fine[scale]n[narrow]3[three feet gauge]. In the same vein, 0 Scale narrow gauge is referred as 0n3 [for three foot] or 0n30 [for two foot six inches. Bachmann and Blackwood are the most popular models in this scale, but the British Company, Backwoods Miniatures, make some astounding models in ALL the small ng scales, including a drop-dead gorgeous SAR NG/G16 that runs on 9mm gauge track...

Germans use a slightly different system, only fair as Marklin invented the various scales at the end of the 19th century. Their larger scale is referred to a Spur II and IIm [m for metre gauge]. The most common of the smaller gauges of narrow gauge is H0e ['eng' is German for narrow.] Bemo brand rolling stock represents this best. In UK the equivalent is 009, 00 scale of 4mm/foot running on n gauge track
 
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John Solimine

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Nice looking car Tac.
I had a long conversation with Don Niday, the owner of Iron Creek Shops in Knoxville Tennessee. Unsolicited but confirming what you posted, Don pointed out that the "F" in Fn3 stood for "fine." As one of the originals to adopt three foot narrow gauge to forty-five millimeter track, he spoke of "G" scales disjointed history. For the uninitiated, it went like this;

We Americans first ventured into modeling in forty-five millimeter gauge with scales ranging from one-twenty forth, one twenty-ninth, and the LGB metric scale of one-twenty-second-point five. There were many variations at first before settling on the obvious fifteen millimeters to the foot. That equates to modeling the three foot narrow gauge at the ratio we know as 1:20.3.

The highly skilled Mr. Sheridan of Austin, Texas left this world some twenty years ago. Before he left us, he built models in the various gauges of the day.
 
tac foley

tac foley

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Nice looking car Tac.
I had a long conversation with Don Niday, the owner of Iron Creek Shops in Knoxville Tennessee. Unsolicited but confirming what you posted, Don pointed out that the "F" in Fn3 stood for "fine." As one of the originals to adopt three foot narrow gauge to forty-five millimeter track, he spoke of "G" scales disjointed history. For the uninitiated, it went like this;

We Americans first ventured into modeling in forty-five millimeter gauge with scales ranging from one-twenty forth, one twenty-ninth, and the LGB metric scale of one-twenty-second-point five. There were many variations at first before settling on the obvious fifteen millimeters to the foot. That equates to modeling the three foot narrow gauge at the ratio we know as 1:20.3.

The highly skilled Mr. Sheridan of Austin, Texas left this world some twenty years ago. Before he left us, he built models in the various gauges of the day.
In my post above, I noted that the F in Fn3 stoofd for 'Fine', as in Finescale. I mentioned before in another context, the use of 1/24th scale, bearing mind that apart from your currency, you are still 'Imperial' in your measurements, makes perfect sense. As does the use of 1/48th scale - 1/4" to the foot, for 0 scale. With the easy conversion of 45mm to three feet, there is the rationale for all the mass of Colorado steamers that pervade our hobby in large scale, notwithstanding the ultra-rare LGB/Magnus K27 in 1/22.5 scale - too rare and too expensive and fragile to be taken seriously.

The reason why 1/29th was chosen is less obvious, but the story, put about by Nat Polk, founder of Aristocraft Trains, is that he found 1/32nd scale running on 45mm track - true Gauge 1 - to be less than impressive, even allowing for the much larger North American prototypes he intended to model.

He 'lit' upon 1/29th scale, saying that it had a REAL WOW!!! factor lacking in 1/32nd scale. Only Mike of MTH stuck with Gauge 1 delineation, and still does. My own theory about the choice of 1/29th scale is more plausible - it is simply three times larger than the usual H0 scale of 1/87th, and the enormous cost of making new drawings, and the complexity of pantographing/cutting new dies for moulds was made that much easier, since they were already made 'in the rough' at a much larger scale. Nobody is admitting that the larger scale WAS 1/29th, but I've seen pre-production original moulds for plastic components, before they were pantographically reduced to 1/87th scale, and .......

Back to the Sheridan van I made - it came from Phil Dipple of Phil's Narrow Gauge - and was, he said, the very last one ever made. I didn't know that Mr Sheridan had been gone that long, but it makes my old van even more precious to me. The care and attention that had obviously gone into making the component parts made building it a cinch. It cost a fortune - around $400 plus shipping, but unlike the Bachmann shortie van, that is pretty good but still looks like plastic, you'd never imagine that this is anything except real wood.

131880_6497e939bbab9828c6f36be979737c50.png
131882_6830c4e3b30c5bde49f7a7d39fa14d8f.png
 
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John Solimine

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Isn't history interesting... at least when it's favorable.

Thank you Tac for your thoughts on how one twenty-ninth scale came about... seems quite plausible.

As for the rare owners of LGB's ultra rare one twenty-second point five scale K-27, I've got the perfect caboose for that rare person.
 
tac foley

tac foley

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Isn't history interesting... at least when it's favorable.

Thank you Tac for your thoughts on how one twenty-ninth scale came about... seems quite plausible.

As for the rare owners of LGB's ultra rare one twenty-second point five scale K-27, I've got the perfect caboose for that rare person.
From Nat Polk's own mouth at the ECLSTS.
 
Rhinochugger

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I have just been quoted, by a small-scale railway modeller, that his models (two different layouts) are On24 and On42.5.

In this case, the numbers represent the 1:1 track-gauge in inches. - The rest gets confuddling! o_O
OK, so I get the nomenclature

He's modelling in 0 gauge (7mm:1ft)
He's modelling narrow gauge

One layout is based on a 2 ft gauge railway

The other is based on a gauge of 42.5 inches - which equals 3ft - 6.5 ins.

Now, there are some oddities, even here in the Great British Isles, 2ft - 8.5 ins being one of them. There are also 4ft lines, but I haven't come across a 42.5 inch gauge line ...................... yet :nerd::nerd::nerd:
 
dunnyrail

dunnyrail

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but I haven't come across a 42.5 inch gauge line ...................... yet :nerd::nerd::nerd:
[/QUOTE]

Hm never say never (but you did not), I have something like 20 of the Industrial Railway Societies Industrial books on varying Counties. A search through any one of them will find a bewildering variety of Narrow Gauge Railways Gauges, not got time to search that lot but I would not be in the slightest bit surprised to find that oddity in one of them.
 
P

Paul M

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but I haven't come across a 42.5 inch gauge line ...................... yet :nerd::nerd::nerd:
Hm never say never (but you did not), I have something like 20 of the Industrial Railway Societies Industrial books on varying Counties. A search through any one of them will find a bewildering variety of Narrow Gauge Railways Gauges, not got time to search that lot but I would not be in the slightest bit surprised to find that oddity in one of them.
[/QUOTE]
Prototype for everything
 
PhilP

PhilP

G Scale, 7/8th's, Electronics
5 Jun 2013
23,502
493
Tamworth, Staffs.
OK, so I get the nomenclature

He's modelling in 0 gauge (7mm:1ft)
He's modelling narrow gauge

One layout is based on a 2 ft gauge railway

The other is based on a gauge of 42.5 inches - which equals 3ft - 6.5 ins.

Now, there are some oddities, even here in the Great British Isles, 2ft - 8.5 ins being one of them. There are also 4ft lines, but I haven't come across a 42.5 inch gauge line ...................... yet :nerd::nerd::nerd:
I neglected to say the Gentleman concerned is in Australia..

Reading between the lines (no pun) it would appear he makes his own track as well! :eek::clap::clap:
 
Rhinochugger

Rhinochugger

Retired Oik
27 Oct 2009
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558
North West Norfolk
Hm never say never (but you did not), I have something like 20 of the Industrial Railway Societies Industrial books on varying Counties. A search through any one of them will find a bewildering variety of Narrow Gauge Railways Gauges, not got time to search that lot but I would not be in the slightest bit surprised to find that oddity in one of them.
Prototype for everything
[/QUOTE]
I neglected to say the Gentleman concerned is in Australia..

Reading between the lines (no pun) it would appear he makes his own track as well! :eek::clap::clap:
I guess there is such an oddity somewhere - but oddity it certainly is - no wonder the scale description was a bit confusing :confused::confused:
 
Rhinochugger

Rhinochugger

Retired Oik
27 Oct 2009
25,261
558
North West Norfolk
In my post above, I noted that the F in Fn3 stoofd for 'Fine', as in Finescale. I mentioned before in another context, the use of 1/24th scale, bearing mind that apart from your currency, you are still 'Imperial' in your measurements, makes perfect sense. As does the use of 1/48th scale - 1/4" to the foot, for 0 scale. With the easy conversion of 45mm to three feet, there is the rationale for all the mass of Colorado steamers that pervade our hobby in large scale, notwithstanding the ultra-rare LGB/Magnus K27 in 1/22.5 scale - too rare and too expensive and fragile to be taken seriously.

The reason why 1/29th was chosen is less obvious, but the story, put about by Nat Polk, founder of Aristocraft Trains, is that he found 1/32nd scale running on 45mm track - true Gauge 1 - to be less than impressive, even allowing for the much larger North American prototypes he intended to model.

He 'lit' upon 1/29th scale, saying that it had a REAL WOW!!! factor lacking in 1/32nd scale. Only Mike of MTH stuck with Gauge 1 delineation, and still does. My own theory about the choice of 1/29th scale is more plausible - it is simply three times larger than the usual H0 scale of 1/87th, and the enormous cost of making new drawings, and the complexity of pantographing/cutting new dies for moulds was made that much easier, since they were already made 'in the rough' at a much larger scale. Nobody is admitting that the larger scale WAS 1/29th, but I've seen pre-production original moulds for plastic components, before they were pantographically reduced to 1/87th scale, and .......

Back to the Sheridan van I made - it came from Phil Dipple of Phil's Narrow Gauge - and was, he said, the very last one ever made. I didn't know that Mr Sheridan had been gone that long, but it makes my old van even more precious to me. The care and attention that had obviously gone into making the component parts made building it a cinch. It cost a fortune - around $400 plus shipping, but unlike the Bachmann shortie van, that is pretty good but still looks like plastic, you'd never imagine that this is anything except real wood.

View attachment 256359View attachment 256360
The F in Fn3 is not for 'Fine' tac, it is the American 'F' scale - so F (15mm : 1ft) n (narrow gauge) 3 (3 ft) why they do 30 for 30 inch 2ft 6" and not 2.5, I don't know.