To scale, or not to scale?

Bolendo

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Hi folks.

I am fairly (Fairlie) new to G scale. I am still making mistakes, but hope to learn from them. Don't laugh at me too loudly please.

I have just purchased a Double Fairlie from Ebay.com in the US, advertised as G Scale. Of course buying from there, you have high postage, import charges and a long wait.

You will no doubt all say I should have done more research before hitting that "buy it now" blue box.

As can be seen from the attached photo, despite being sold as G scale, it doesn't exactly measure up to the genuine article. It is pictured beside two examples of the genuine article.

Now that it has been delivered, I did some more research. It looks like a Bachmann Brassworks product, legitably billed as G scale in their publicity, as can be seen in tis link. Brassworks G-Scale Double Fairlie - Model Rail Forum

It looks much more like Gauge 1 to me. Can anyone comment?

Many thanks.

Bob.
 

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Gizzy

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Your Double Fairlie would run on 2 ft gauge track and your German loco on metre gauge, hence the disparity.

However, if you like it, and you can get suitable rolling stock to run with it, why not stick with it?

I often run my G scale with friends who run G1, 16mm and other scales on 45mm track together....
 

Bolendo

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Your Double Fairlie would run on 2 ft gauge track and your German loco on metre gauge, hence the disparity.

However, if you like it, and you can get suitable rolling stock to run with it, why not stick with it?

I often run my G scale with friends who run G1, 16mm and other scales on 45mm track together....
The German loco is a Saxon Meyer, and runs on 750mm (2 ' 5") gauge tracks. The coach in the picture was purchased as a coach from the Ffestiniog, where the Fairlie also hails from. Both are to G scale. Sorry, but something is wrong somewhere.
 

maxi-model

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Hello and welcome. The Bachmann Brassworks loco was marketed as 1:19 scale or 16 mm to the foot, pretty much the norm for narrow gauge British/Colonial prototypes modeled for garden railway operation.. Particularly those that represent prototypes tha ran on 2 ft gauge. As the real life Fffestiniog Fairley's do. The real loco was built to the fairly tight Ffestiniog loading gauge. So do not be put off by it's apparently diminutive size. What was unusual, for the time, was that is was made available in 45 mm gauged form rather than its "native" 32 mm gauge for its scale. That and it was made as a track powered product, out of the box, not a live steamer or battery powered. Nowadays it is the norm for manufacturers to offer the gauging options for models made in this scale. There are a lot more 45 mm layout compared to 32 m. I run a lot of 16 mm scaled models on my 45 mm LGB tracked line.

It's an oddball but a nice oddball, in marketing terms. Which is why Bachmann probably did not repeat the exersise. They left the market to the established operators - Roundhouse, Accucraft UK, Regner and the myriad of specialist artisan builders, Max

Point of note. The Fairley, as it is a wheels are of the outside frame design is nigh on impossible to offer as a readily regaugeable, between 32mm and 45 mm, as most 16 mm scale product is now offered. Even now Roundhouse's live steam offering must be ordered in one or other gauge from the outset. Designs with the wheels inside the frames are much easier to offer this option on.
 
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Bolendo

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Hello and welcome. The Bachmann Brassworks loco was marketed as -1:19 scale - 16 mm to the foot pretty much the norm for for narrow gauge British/Colonial prototypes. Particularly those to represent prototypes tha ran on 2 ft gauge. As the real life Fffestiniog Fairley's do. The loco was built to the fairly tight Ffestiniog loading gauge. So do not be put off be it's apparently diminutive size. What is unusual, for the time, was that is was made available in 45 mm gauged form rather than its "native" 32 mm gauge for its scale. That ane it was made as a track powered product, out of the boxNowadays it is the norm for manufacturers to offer the gauging options for models made in this scale. Max
Thanks Max. I assume then that the coach has been made to the wrong scale then?
 

JimmyB

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The only way to really determine if it is to scale or not would be to measure it against a scale drawing. It very well be to scale :)
 

dunnyrail

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Your Double Fairlie would run on 2 ft gauge track and your German loco on metre gauge, hence the disparity.

However, if you like it, and you can get suitable rolling stock to run with it, why not stick with it?

I often run my G scale with friends who run G1, 16mm and other scales on 45mm track together....
Sorry to bust your bubble Gizzy, but that is a Sachen Meyer runs on 750mm gauge. But and a big but LGB upped the size with their elastic ruler to make it match other LGB stuff, much of which is indeed Metre Gauge. In reality the Meyer would be considerably smaller perhaps less than the Fairlie. Now that should be 16mm scale and I reckon it could be as they are quite a small loco compared to the average European NG loco. So you need a drawing and compare model size to the drawing. To give some idea these are from Wiki. Note some may be a bit out to make compromise for 45mm track gauge but the height would be a good one to compare - remember 16mm to the foot.
Cylinders (4)9" x 14"
Nominal wheel diameter2' 8"
Boiler pressure160 psi
Length over couplers32' 7 1⁄2"
Width over tanks6' 6 1⁄2"
Height to cab top8' 6 1⁄2"
Bogie wheelbase4' 8"
Weight31 tons
Water capacity450 gallons
Heating surface area533 sq. ft
Tractive effort (@ 85% BP)9,640 lb
RatingFR: 12 carriages
WHR: 6 carriages
 

Gizzy

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Both are to G scale. Sorry, but something is wrong somewhere.
Ah you've been caught out here! G as by LGB for NG prototypes can be anything from 1:19 to 1:22.5, and SG prototypes can be around 1:28 to 1:35. LGB's rubber ruler. think of OO and HO. Also nearly everything made by LGB is designed to run on R1 curves.

Also the loading gauge for a Fairlie is much smaller than the Saxon in real life. Does your Fairlie have a scale quoted as a ratio....
 

maxi-model

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Thanks Max. I assume then that the coach has been made to the wrong scale then?

That coach. I cannot quite make out, is it steel bodied with the decoration "printed" on it ? It certainly isn't made to the Ffestiniog loading gauge. The Saxon loco will be built to the more common 1:22.5 scale favoured by LGB and other European makers when building replicas of their narrow gauge prototypes. Don't get me on the subject of the rubber rulers used by a lot of manufacturers to scale and proportion a lot of product. Compromises have to be made a lot of the time to meet the operating requirements of a lot of lines. Max
 

Bolendo

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Ah you've been caught out here! G as by LGB for NG prototypes can be anything from 1:19 to 1:22.5, and SG prototypes can be around 1:28 to 1:35. LGB's rubber ruler. think of OO and HO. Also nearly everything made by LGB is designed to run on R1 curves.

Also the loading gauge for a Fairlie is much smaller than the Saxon in real life. Does your Fairlie have a scale quoted as a ratio....
As far as I can see, the original Bachmann Brassworks publicity describes it as 1:19. Yes, caught out is a good way to describe my situation. Ballsed it up is a another, perhaps more accurate. It is well seen I am new to this game.

I am loathe to purchase another set of rolling stock to run with it. It will end up for sale. You will probably see it in the sales section, although I won't get anywhere near my outlay, when postage and customs charges are considered. I must be more careful in future. Too quick on the draw by far. Thanks for your comments.
 

Bolendo

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That coach. I cannot quite make out, is it steel,bodied with the decoration "printed on it ? It certainly isn't made to THE Ffestiniog loading gauge. The Saxon loco will be built to the more common 1:22.5 scale favoured by LGB and other European makers when building replicas of their narrow gauge prototypes. Don't get me on the subject of rubber rules used to scale and proportion a lot of product. Compromises have to be made a lot of the time to meet the operating requirements of a lot of lines. Max
I think the coach is hand built or from a kit and is wood construction, but I will check tomorrow. Thanks.
 

maxi-model

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I would not get too down about it. Do you intend to model the Ffestiniog ? Are you going to run 45 mm gauge ? The loco can be converted to battery/rc operation. OK pretty much all the stock you will run with it will have to be or have been kit built. Because of the Ffestiniog's popularity there are a mass of kits out there to represent the stock, to suit all skill levels. Most of it is quite beautiful. You may not have been caught out but made a very practical start. Max
 

Bolendo

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I would not get too down about it. Do you intend to model the Ffestiniog ? Are you going to run 45 mm gauge ? The loco can be converted to battery/rc operation. OK pretty much all the stock you will run with it will have to be or have been kit built. Because of the Ffestiniog's popularity there are a mass of kits out there to represent the stock, to suit all skill levels. Most of it is quite beautiful. You may not have been caught out but made a very practical start. Max
Thanks for your positivity. I have an eclectic mix - I am interested mainly in different types of locomotive and tramway engineering, that I can run on my 45mm layout. Amongst the locos, I have a Shay, a Climax, a Saxon Meyer, and a couple of Mallets, as well as conventional rigid framed locos. So far, they have all been more or less the same general size and have not looked too out of place alongside each other. The little Fairlie just looks too small. By a long way. For that reason alone, I consider it a waste of money. We all look at modelling with different perspectives. I understand if my attitude is not conventional. However I do appreciate the differing points of view expressed in this thread.
 

maxi-model

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Thanks for your positivity. I have an eclectic mix - I am interested mainly in different types of locomotive and tramway engineering, that I can run on my 45mm layout. Amongst the locos, I have a Shay, a Climax, a Saxon Meyer, and a couple of Mallets, as well as conventional rigid framed locos. So far, they have all been more or less the same general size and have not looked too out of place alongside each other. The little Fairlie just looks too small. By a long way. For that reason alone, I consider it a waste of money. We all look at modelling with different perspectives. I understand if my attitude is not conventional. However I do appreciate the differing points of view expressed in this thread.

Each to their own. I run quite a variety of loco types, similar to what you are running in some ways. I stick to 16 and 15 mm scales, all running on 45 mm track. Did you say size comparison. A couple of pics from a trip not so long ago to the Ffestiniog/Welsh Highland Railway (WHR) - note the size difference between the Double Fairley in the workshop and the and the NG/G16 Garratt outside. They sometimes run the Fairley on the WHR, not the other way around :D Yes the Fairley can look a bit small. Bit like standing a Shay next to a Porter. Size is relative ;) :) Max

Edit use the shed doors for scale.

20180413_183639.jpg

20180413_183611.jpg
 
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PhilP

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A lesson? Yes..
But you obviously liked the loco, so do not be too quick to list it for sale.

If you came into a room, and spotted it on display, would it raise a smile?
Would you inwardly say "I like that"?

If so, sit on your hands for a short while, before deciding to part with it.
A prototype train can be quite short, so could be two or three vehicles. - You could have a short train, and it would look very fine, against the backdrop you have for your line.

We have all bought things that do not 'match', or we like the look of, but turn out to be not what we were expecting.
You can always alter the 'back story' of your line, to accommodate the stock you have.

PhilP
 
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It is a Fairlie, named after designer Robert F Fairlie.

That is not a Festiniog carriage, and not even close to being one. Too short in length, too tall in height. Festiniog rolling stock is tiny compared to most other stuff.
 

maxi-model

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The photos I have posted were taken at Boston lodge works on a visit that was on the evening prior to the "Snowdonian" rail tour booked. That train traverses both the Ffestiniog and WHR lines in one day. They use the rolling stock made for the Ffestiniog's tight loading gauge throughout. The trip starts at Portmadoc and travels to Blaenau Ffestiniog and returns to Portmadoc where the small Ffestiniog engine(s) used initially are detached and the larger NG/G16's replace them to go to Caernarvon and back. I said NG/G16's - they double headed those beasts on this tour (8 ft across the cylinders on a 2 ft gauged loco). They sometimes double head double Fairleys for the same special tour throughout. They even sometimes haul the taller/wider WHR specific stock with diminutive Ffestiniog locos. Anything is possible there as it is elsewhere.

Little note about those pictures - The NG/G16 shown was found to have a broken spring in one of its pony trucks on the following morning when it was scheduled to haul the Snowdonian with one of its sisters. We set off on the Caernarvon leg with only one of the promised NG/G16's. Shortly after we arrived there the self same, now repaired, NG/G16 showed up with a water tanker in tow - to be interposed between the two locos so the now double headed train can pass over the bridges with restricted loadings on the line on the return to Portmadoc. Max
 

jimmielx

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Bob, I think one thing to be careful of is the term 'G Scale'. Really it would be better called G Gauge or maybe G Scales. As noted above G Scale for the most part indicates the use of 45mm G scale track - it seems to mostly exclude the finer scale Gauge 1 45mm gauge track and stock intended for that scale. As to the actual scales represented in G, you have between 1:32 and 1:19 (or maybe even 1:13.7 if you include the 7/8ths folks). So it really is a broad church. For the most part you can imagine that G scale stock will all ride on G scale track with some very tight curves - some larger engines won't get round R1 or R2, most I think will get round R3 and above.
1:19 scale British outline narrow gauge stuff on 45mm track is a bit of a rare beast. Mostly because at this scale 2 ft narrow gauge (which is most prevalent here) is better represented by 32mm gauge track. And at that point you are in with the 16mm or SM32 crowd. They however are mostly live steam or battery, certainly I've not come across any track power in that scale. Of course 0 Gauge which also uses 32mm gauge track does extensively use track power!
Personally I do use 1:19 on 45mm track, so I'm modelling what I like to call a narrow-ish Gauge. My stock shares a similar loading gauge and overall size and to me looks good run together.
Oddly two items I do have which always look a bit odd together are a pair of Brandbright 16mm scale Vale of Rheidol bogie coaches and an Accucraft 16mm scale Baguley Drewery Diesel - modelled on the one at the Vale of Rheidol Railway. The diesel being significantly taller than the coaches - which is indeed prototypical even if it doesn't look right (see the photograph here https://www.rheidolrailway.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/IMG_6018-1024x768.jpeg).
Confused?!! Well it is a bit of a mine field! Throughout the above, I've caveated almost (there I go again!) everything I've written, because there are exceptions to everything - it really comes down to what looks right to you. I think the best advise is to run whatever makes you happy.
It may be an interesting exercise to compare its dimensions to the prototype and see what sort of scale that gives you - and do the same with some other bits of your stock. As a simple starting point here's a link to the Roundhouse Double Fairlie (I think there stuff is all 16mm scale, but they don't quote it) with basic dimensions of the model in the specs "Dimensions (loading gauge): Length - 501mm over buffers, width 108mm, height 135mm" Roundhouse Engineering Co. Ltd. How does that compare to the Bachmann Brassworks model?
The double Fairlie looks lovely to me, I'd certainly be thrilled to own it (if it would get round my R2s) and it would fit in well on my line so I'll certainly take an interest if you do decide to move it on (that said these trick times are not the best for stock acquisition...!).
Hope you do enjoy your model, but if not I would imagine you'd be able to sell it on without much loss - it's not something I see for sale often.
 
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Fred2179G

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I think the coach is hand built or from a kit and is wood construction,
The coach looks like the old GRS resin 'kits' that were just a compartment and you glued several together to make a longer coach. The trucks look like Bachmann shorties, from the 20' freight wagons.

P6050017-LB-brake-GRS-coach-jims-060505-lg.jpg