Scale versus track dimensions dilemma

Henri

Henri

refuses to grow up
6 May 2016
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The coaches from the RTM I’d like to build will be close to 57cm in length in ‘LGB scale’. That’s pretty long for my R1 layout.

What would you do, stick to scale length or make it a bit shorter?

Here’s a prototype on my track. Boogies are in the right position.

135516_66f8af918b5a10cfb3a1b424645d92b0.jpeg
 
Gavin Sowry

Gavin Sowry

Garden Railroader and Raconteur
27 Oct 2009
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It's all about compromise. One has to accept the fact that not everything is possible when all things are not equal. In this case, R1 is the problem.
Given that, in your case (and mine), it is not possible to change that, then you will have to accept shorter coaches. Fact is, many propietry models are actually made 'shorter' so that they fit.
The trick is, getting them to look 'right'.
 
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Paulus

Paulus

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13 Jan 2012
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I agree with Gavin. You have to find the right look while keeping the coaches shorter than the original if you are not able to use them in true scale length.

It is commonly done by most bigger model railway manufacturers. For instance most European standard commercial H0 (1:87) scale coaches are actually 1:100 in length. Running true scale carriages on a layout was mostly not possible due to the tight curves etc. And sometimes it even did not look right... Roco for instance did bring a series that were exactly in 1:87 scale in length but looked way to long some how. Espacially when they run together with similar type of coaches (1:100 in lenght) from other brands like Marklin or Fleischman. Those shorter ones looked, crazy enough, more right than the ones that were correct... untill you compare them with pictures of the real coaches. ;-)

I believe it is the same with LGB. The longer carriages and coaches are shortened. Somehow they find a compromise.

EDIT: this is what I meant: True to scale coaches vs the shorter length coaches

 
Paulus

Paulus

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Or you can keep them in scale (what would be great an possible easier than trying to find a good compromise) and find some solution for the couplers and obstacles along the track
 
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phils2um

Phil S
11 Sep 2015
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The overhang on the ends appears to be the biggest issue. This could be lessened by moving the trucks outward. The overhang on the inside doesn't look too bad. Even with the trucks moved more toward the ends it may still be OK. If you keep the scale length you might consider two sets of bolsters for the trucks - one set where they "belong" for display purposes and another outer set to help negotiate your R1 curves. You could check this out with your mockup.
 
maxi-model

maxi-model

UK/US/ROW steam narrow gauge railways 1:1
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This is why the standard recommendation given out when one starts in this part of the hobby is to go with the widest radius curves and points you can manage with on your layout. There comes a point for some when limited radius curves and pointwork start limiting what you can run, at least in its true prototypical form. But then the cornerstone of the "G Scale" movement, LGB, has from the outset had to exercise the rubber ruler on its loco and rolling stock representations to mitigate for some of the more minimal items used in its track geometry.

If the final result does not offend you eye, chop 'em Henri or try what Phil has suggested. If it will, and you wish to build and use more of the same in the future, then redesign your layout, if practical, to accommodate them. Max
 
idlemarvel

idlemarvel

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If it was me I would make them shorter to fit the track. That in itself gives you and interesting design challenge, to maintain the "look and feel". I have all R1 and my maximum length rolling stock is 450mm and everything looks fine. It does limit some choices of RTR locos and coaches but I accept that limitation. Frankly no-one but you is going to know 99.9% of the time anyway.
 
dunnyrail

dunnyrail

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The coaches from the RTM I’d like to build will be close to 57cm in length in ‘LGB scale’. That’s pretty long for my R1 layout.

What would you do, stick to scale length or make it a bit shorter?

Here’s a prototype on my track. Boogies are in the right position.

View attachment 258178
Henri,
Have to say that knowing your line that would look silly and I know that you are taking great pains to get your Steam Tram Build correct. So what to do? I suspect that you would not be happy using the Elastic Ruler so favoured by LGB and indeed some other manufacturers. I think in your situation I would be Casting round the many Dutch Steam Tramlines searching for suitable 4 Wheel or Shorter Bogie Coaches that will fit nicely to your Steam Tram theme. I cannot put my fingers on the book that I know I have that may give examples of 4 wheelers. But......

If you wish to persevere with a Bogie Car I have a copy of ‘De geschiedenis van de blauwe tram’ which has many other lines besides the well loved Electric Blue Trams in it. There are quite a few Steam Tram Lines that appear to have shorter Bogie Cars than yours appears to be. With Drawings in 1:87.

Be interesting to know what you have used as a conversion number, looking at the distance between the Bogies I am looking at a couple of Trailer Cars from an Electric Line that would suit a Steam Tram being of some age. One is 12900 the other 12170. That scales at 57 and 54 Cm if you are using 1;22.5 as a converter. But the smaller one looks much more suitable for a smaller Railway. These are from the HZN. The NRS had Bogie Trailers somewhat shorter at 11280 thus 50cm. Even better are the Bogie Cars from the Runladsche Stoomtram at 10890 (48.5) with End Balconies or the Centre Entrance Cars at 10350 (46).

Perversely one line had 4wheel Trailer Cars that scale at near 53cm but looks like these were eventually converted to Bogie Cars unsurprisingly by the looks of the Drawings. I am not able to give much interpretation of the views in the Book, my Dutch is near non-existant but I can read a Drawing!

Hope this helps some.
 
Rhinochugger

Rhinochugger

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This is definitely Rule 8 territory. As Gavin said earlier, we all make compromises with our railways. I have majored on fn3 1:20 15mm :1ft and I have made a point of buying scale locos and rolling stock :cool::cool:


..... and then I compromised and also use other things that look right :):):):)
 
Henri

Henri

refuses to grow up
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Thank you all for taking time to ventilate your thoughts here. It is really very helpful to pinpoint my own thoughts on what I think is important for me.

Suggestions to get larger radi track is unfortunately not an option.

The options narrow down to:
  • Find coaches that are shorter in 'true scale' (not quite likely to happen as I want RTM...) (but there are numerous very interesting coaches JonD!)
  • Chop them as required (LGB's famous rubber ruler, with and height in true scale, but overall length to my own taste)
  • Scale them down (the overall scale, so scale correct, just a bit smaller then 1/22,5. Have to figure out how this 'looks')
It is very informative reading each ones opinion. For example, I was not aware of the 1/100 H0 scale coaches!!
 
mike

mike

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Life is a compromise, but in the garden railway world we can decide what compromise we want to accept, and what we won't, I can accept lgb r1 track but it has to be in context and look right.. To me
 
ARIA31

ARIA31

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I have all R1 as well

I would suggest you stay close to the LGB hoper car which is 54 cm without hook and loop and having 42 cm between boggie rotation axles.

135534_3acefd0589fc526a9e4ffa1fe77cbd40.jpg


I am also in the design phase of a very long car and I took care this car might run through the tunnel doors.
 

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dunnyrail

dunnyrail

DOGS, Garden Railways, Steam Trains, Jive Dancing,
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Thank you all for taking time to ventilate your thoughts here. It is really very helpful to pinpoint my own thoughts on what I think is important for me.

Suggestions to get larger radi track is unfortunately not an option.

The options narrow down to:
  • Find coaches that are shorter in 'true scale' (not quite likely to happen as I want RTM...) (but there are numerous very interesting coaches JonD!)
  • Chop them as required (LGB's famous rubber ruler, with and height in true scale, but overall length to my own taste)
  • Scale them down (the overall scale, so scale correct, just a bit smaller then 1/22,5. Have to figure out how this 'looks')
It is very informative reading each ones opinion. For example, I was not aware of the 1/100 H0 scale coaches!!
Thinking about your answers, I think the middle option is the best possibly as I guess you want to replicate those fine Wooden Bodied RTM Coaches. This should work just fine and certainly give the look and feel of what you are wishing to achieve. I would suggest the length of around 38cm (excluding buffers LGB list them as 42cm) as the Bogie Clerestory Coaches of the 3060 / 31610 series would work fine with your line. In fact I have 3 of these Coaches and they look very good with any Steam Tram, perhaps you already have one?
 
Gizzy

Gizzy

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Forget about bogie vehicles Henri, and go for 2 axle coaches and wagons....
 
maxi-model

maxi-model

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Forget about bogie vehicles Henri, and go for 2 axle coaches and wagons....
Interesting - When I recently bought my, prototypically, 2 fixed axle Zillertalbahn coach kits an option was offered by their makers, Lineside Hut, for a bogied version. Why ? They are offered to those operators with tighter radius curves. I suppose the risk with fixed axles is that the deep wheel flanges will bind in the rail's gauge on a longer wheelbase coach. Now i'm awaresthat with some LGB twin axle offerings they have axles that pivot to get round this issue. But they are not fixed.

With twin bogies you can play around with their mounting to minimise the risk of them derailing due to going beyond the capabilites/swing of the coupling's movement. Then again you can mount the couplings to extensions on the bogies rather than ridgidly to the buffer beams to get round that problem. But that might seem unsightly. Providing the bogies themselve are not too longer wheelbase for a curve's radius then there should be no binding issues. Max
 
Rhinochugger

Rhinochugger

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With twin bogies you can play around with their mounting to minimise the risk of them derailing due to going beyond the capabilites/swing of the coupling's movement. Then again you can mount the couplings to extensions on the bogies rather than ridgidly to the buffer beams to get round that problem. But that might seem unsightly. Providing the bogies themselve are not too longer wheelbase for a curve's radius then there should be no binding issues. Max
Exactly, bogies give you the most flexibility for mouting position , thus allowing you to build a chassis that will meet the clearance requirements and thus maximise the length of the vehicle within the line's limits.
 
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Paul M

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Bogies or no bogies, take your pick:giggle::giggle::giggle:
 
voodoopenguin

voodoopenguin

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Excuse the slight diversion. I am reminded that many years ago i was shown some incredibly short US outline HO coaches. It seems at least one manufacturer produced them so that model railroaders could run full 12 or more coach trains consisting of all the different types that would usually make up that train but in a small space. They looked totally bizarre even to my toy bias brain.

Paul
 
Rhinochugger

Rhinochugger

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Excuse the slight diversion. I am reminded that many years ago i was shown some incredibly short US outline HO coaches. It seems at least one manufacturer produced them so that model railroaders could run full 12 or more coach trains consisting of all the different types that would usually make up that train but in a small space. They looked totally bizarre even to my toy bias brain.

Paul
Just like LGB and their shorty US coaches
:p :p
 
Madman

Madman

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I haven't read the previous replies, yet, but I will say that if it were I the rubber ruler would be taken out of my toolbox and put to use.

I realize that you may want to be as prototypical as you can, but the tight radii of R1 curves is for much, much shorter rolling stock.

Many years ago, Mark Horowitz wrote and article in his then garden railways magazine about the length of rolling stock and tight curves. I followed his advice then, as my curves were all R1. I made the decision to go with field railway type equipment. The trains looked so much more realistic. I eventually changed all of those tight curves to R3 and R2. I run longer stock now but still not those very long pieces that you are thinking of. I've actually shortened some pieces.

An example of some shortened stock.


And my field stock.