ROCK ISLAND 4-6-2 Locomotive No. 1000

Rhinochugger

Rhinochugger

Retired Oik
27 Oct 2009
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Your math is fine..
and the solution to the discrepency is simple: All kinds of model trains, in many scales, run on a gauge that doesnt precicely match the scale. ;)
It's been going on since the dawn of time, was very common in the O-scale and S-scale Tinplate world, and we still have a lot of it today: 1/29, On30, HOn30..

Scot
.......... and over here we have 00 - which runs on 16.5 mm track but is 4mm : 1ft ................... and, surprisingly is probably the most popular model railway scale in the UK :think::think::think:
 
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Paul M

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I'm sure it's not you, it's the model manufacturer making life easy for themselves and telling small fibs about the accuracy of the model
 
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N

norman

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Hi Scot & others,

PRINTED AT 200% LEDGER LETTER PAPER SIZE, PORTRAIT
http://s3.amazonaws.com/rrpa_photos/82493/20120811_110040.jpg
Inline image

The Above Image Printed At 200%,
The Pilot Truck WHEEL Measures 75 mm Dia. , The Driver WHEEL Measures 161 mm Dia.
The BUDDY L Pilot Truck Wheel Measures 1 - 3/4 inches = 1.75 Inch.
The BUDDY L Driver Correct Sized Wheel Calculates To :

75 * X = 161
X = 161 / 75

The BUDDY L Driver Correct Sized Wheel = 1.75 Inch * 161 / 75 = 3.75 Inch ( or 3.757 Inch )



3.75 Inch * Scale of 19.2 = 72 INCH

From Scot , " The Prototype Rock Island pacifics had driver diameters between 69" and 74". ".


THANKS SCOT !!!!!




Norman
 
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KeithT

KeithT

Hillwalking, chickens and - err - garden railways.
24 Oct 2009
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Blimey! After reading all this my head hurts, I am going for a lie down . . . .
 
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dunnyrail

dunnyrail

DOGS, Garden Railways, Steam Trains, Jive Dancing,
25 Oct 2009
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.......... and over here we have 00 - which runs on 16.5 mm track but is 4mm : 1ft ................... and, surprisingly is probably the most popular model railway scale in the UK :think::think::think:
History is a cruel thing, one of the early (possibly more) of the lines that worked into the area that subsequently sports the current Liverpool Street Station was laid to a gauge of 5ft. Now had that been the World standard we may all have been modeling using 20mm Track Gauge in 4mm scale. Would have worked well for TT 3mm scale at 15mm track gauge. Gets a bit messy with HO, but eminently more doable. Many of the issues with larger scales have resulted of that so called standard gauge and utilising the less than satisfactory comparisons between the 45 and 32 Gauges. Ah the foibles of Railway Engineers, let us not get into Brunel and his 7ft Gauge.
 
Greg Elmassian

Greg Elmassian

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So what was the point Norman?

That 5/8" scale is 19.2:1 and the drivers are in scale for a typical Pacific?

So your pilot wheels are 1-3/4" in diameter? Then you state the drivers are 3.757 inches in diameter... that does indeed scale where a normal pacific does, 72"





From my reading, many early Pacific types did indeed have smaller drivers, like a freight engine, not like the more modern ones used for passenger service with notably larger drivers:


Which normally had about 80" drivers.

So looking at the Buddy L model, it is more like the very early Pacifics, found on many continents, with drivers closer to 70"

Greg
 
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norman

Registered
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So what was the point Norman?

That 5/8" scale is 19.2:1 and the drivers are in scale for a typical Pacific?

So your pilot wheels are 1-3/4" in diameter? Then you state the drivers are 3.757 inches in diameter... that does indeed scale where a normal pacific does, 72"





From my reading, many early Pacific types did indeed have smaller drivers, like a freight engine, not like the more modern ones used for passenger service with notably larger drivers:


Which normally had about 80" drivers.

So looking at the Buddy L model, it is more like the very early Pacifics, found on many continents, with drivers closer to 70"

Greg
 
N

norman

Registered
1 Jan 2013
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Greg,


To ask, from those who would know far better than me,


what is a Realistic Sized REPLACEMENT Driver for the BUDDY L Pacific ?

, as per the previous above paragraphs !


Thankfully,

Scot is a really nice guy and was kind enough to help me out .


I will post Replacement Driver BUDDY L Images Latter On .



Norman
 
Greg Elmassian

Greg Elmassian

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Ahh, so you have a Buddy L Pacific and need a replacement driver?

But if you have a Buddy L Pacific, you could measure it yourself.

So the mystery continues, you must not own one, so are you thinking of making a Pacific?

How about letting those people who have answered your many questions know what you are doing? (Give a little back to those people)



Greg
 
Rhinochugger

Rhinochugger

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Oh that Rock Island Line is a mighty good road,
Oh that Rock Island Line is that road to ride,
Oh that Rock Island Line is a mighty good road,
If you want to ride, you got to ride it like you find it,
Get your ticket at the station on the Rock Island Line.
 
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Paul M

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Ahh, so you have a Buddy L Pacific and need a replacement driver?

But if you have a Buddy L Pacific, you could measure it yourself.

So the mystery continues, you must not own one, so are you thinking of making a Pacific?

How about letting those people who have answered your many questions know what you are doing? (Give a little back to those people)



Greg
Isn't that what makes this compelling? a good mystery?
 
N

norman

Registered
1 Jan 2013
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Greg,

You are totally thoroughly not reading the previous text.
So what ever.
I am not going to be distracted and spend my life arguing with you !
You enjoy arguing with people on these forums.

These Model Toy Train Forums are places to have fun and enjoy oneself.
Arguing with yourself is not my concept of fun.

Norman
 
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norman

Registered
1 Jan 2013
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These are my measurements for the BUDDY L PACIFIC Locomotive REPLACEMENT DRIVERS,


USE 3 7/8 Inch as the NEW REPLACEMENT BUDDY L PACIFIC DRIVER SIZE . 73.9 Inch at 1:19 Scale.


ALWAYS PRINT BOTH COMPARING % IMAGES ON
THE SAME SIZED LEDGER SIZED! PAPER !


On the Prototype Photo of 121% LEDGER SIZED! Paper :


Pilot Wheels = 18 mm Diameter.
Drivers = 40 mm Diameter.

Pilot Wheel : Driver Ratio of X,

18 mm Pilot Wheel * X = 40 mm Driver Wheel

X = 40/18


BUDDY L Model Replacement Driver Larger Diameter,

The BUDDY L Model Pilot Truck Wheel Diameter is 1.75 Inch.

1.75 Inch * 40 / 18 = 3.89 Inch SCALE Diameter = 3 7/8 Inch SCALE Diameter.

USE 3 7/8 Inch as the NEW REPLACEMENT DRIVER SIZE .



BUDDY L 164% DRAWING Replacement Driver Dia. ,

The BUDDY L 200% DRAWING Original Driver Wheel Diameter is 36 mm.
The BUDDY L 200% DRAWING Pilot Truck Wheel Diameter is 20 mm.

20 mm * 40 / 18 = 44.44 mm for the Shrinkage Calculation to 164% of

the 200% DRAWING
Driver Wheel Diameter.


BUDDY L 164% Printout Calculation ,

The BUDDY L 200% DRAWING Original Driver Wheel Diameter is 36 mm.

The BUDDY L 164% DRAWING REPLACEMENT Driver Wheel Diameter is 44 mm.

A Ratio of 36 mm : 44 mm .

36 / 44 * 200% = 164% .

Print the BUDDY L Image at 164% to install the 200% Image 36 mm Dia Driver on the 164% Image as a 73.9 Inch SCALE Driver.

The BUDDY L Model is 1:19 Scale.

The 3 7/8 Inch REPLACEMENT Driver Scales as 19 * 3.89 Inch = 73.9 Inch.



1)
The Prototype Locomotive Image,

Inline image



2)
PRINT AT 121% LEDGER SIZED! TO MEASURE THE
PILOT WHEEL TO DRIVE WHEEL RATIO
TO DETERMINE THE BUDDY L REPLACEMENT
DRIVER SIZE. ( Measures Out To 3 7/8 Inch Diameter )
Inline image

http://s3.amazonaws.com/rrpa_photos/56680/100_3036.JPG


3)
PRINT AT 200% LEDGER SIZED! FOR THE
REPLACEMENT DRIVER IMAGE NEW DRIVERS OF
3 7/8 Inch DIAMETER.


4)

PRINT AT 164% LEDGER SIZED! FOR THE
BUDDY L LOCOMOTIVE IMAGE EXISTING DRIVERS OF
3 Inch DIAMETER

TO BE REPLACED BY THE
200% LEDGER SIZED! IMAGE
NEW REPLACEMENT DRIVERS OF
3 7/8 Inch DIAMETER.

Inline image

https://cdn1.mecum.com/auctions/ta1214/ta1214-205314/images/ta1214-205314_3.jpg?1418406093000
 

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Rhinochugger

Rhinochugger

Retired Oik
27 Oct 2009
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North West Norfolk
Madman

Madman

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The loco from your article surely does not look like the modern pacifics I am used to:

View attachment 260607

picture of RI P33 #2625 below



For those who have not read the article: (note my emphasis)

In 1927, a complete line of model railroad equipment was started. The trains were big and heavy, fairly detailed, they were ⅝ inch scale, and ran on two rail track that was 3¼" gauge (three and a quarter inches between the 2 rails). The track had heavy rolled steel rails welded to steel ties. The rolling stock consisted of open cars such as #1007 hoppers, #1005 gondolas and #1006 flats, as well as a 21 inch #1002 box car, #1003 tank car, #1004 stock car, #1008 side dumping ballast car, #1020 wrecking crane, #1021 clamshell dredge, #1022 pile driver and #1023 steam shovel. And of course a 19 inch #1001 red caboose. Overall, there were 14 different pieces of original Buddy L railroad equipment produced, including a single #1000 Pacific type 4-6-2, highly detailed non-powered locomotive and 8-wheeled tender, faithfully copied after a Rock Island prototype. This model is a reproduction of the big compound steam engines originally used in the fast freight service. Fred Lundahl had previously worked for the Rock Island RR, and the Locomotive shops were located at Silvis, Illinois, just a few scant miles from the Moline Pressed Steel Factory. The model featured sand domes, air tanks, whistle, brass bell, running boards, steps, headlight, knuckle couplers, cowcatcher, and brass rail trim. The locomotive included working side rods and valve gear that moved as the engine rolled along the track. Loco and tender measured 42 inches in length. It even had a hinged door on the firebox. All the trains were made of heavy gauge welded sheet steel and were equipped with die-cast AAR type working couplers.


My comment is that the words "FAITHFULLY COPIED" must be taken with a few grains of salt. For 1927, this was highly detailed and to scale apparently. It's not highly detailed nor to scale by today's standard.

Norman, I'm not clear what you are getting at? If you are asking if in 1927 Buddy L made a faithful model, no, not by today's standard. If you are asking how they came up with the funny scale or gauge, I would say "who is John Gault" (interesting reference since Ayn Rand's "Atlas Shrugged" does involve railroads).

Interesting to see where you are going with this. (by the way, some were 3 cylinder, but none were compounds from my limited research)

Greg

Greg, thanks for that excellent narrative on Buddy L trains. I wonder if anywhere along, the locomotives were powered ?
 
N

norman

Registered
1 Jan 2013
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10
Hi Madman,

The answer is YES !!! ,


T-Reproductions
227 West Main Street Johnson City, Tennessee 37604
Phone: 1-800-825-4287
E-mail:
normanthomas@treproductions.com



Norman
 
Greg Elmassian

Greg Elmassian

Registered
8 Mar 2014
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www.elmassian.com
Norman: Well now, can we order/buy some Buddy L reproductions? That would be cool. Do you have a list?

Dan: from what I can tell at the time of the Pacific, and just after these were not apparently powered. Looking at the pictures, you can see under the boiler and it does not appear there is any drive train, nor motor, which would have been pretty large in those days.

Also, much of Norman's posting about the Pacific appears to come from this excellent article: Buddy L Trains
which mentions the date of 1927, for these models, as well as February 1926 for the "outdoor" line, which were not powered, specifically nothing electrical in them.

Interesting history, not the same as the 45mm gauge Buddy L locos that can still be found.

So T-Reproductions is a company, and has a web site: T-Reproductions, LLC » Trains Page

And on that site, a Hudson reproduction is offered for $1,600, and the Pacific being mentioned as a "past reproduction".... so maybe Norman is trying to buy a used one of them and trying to find a replacement driver, or figure it out before buying one, or thinking of making one himself, or ??

It does remain a mystery, too bad it is such a secret.

Greg
 
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