relative speeds of my loco fleet; what can I learn from this data?

R

RH Prague

Central European. the station pub is Czech !!
28 Oct 2009
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My railway is basically a long loop with sidings at various places, and I'm happy to have a train running on the loop while I cut the grass or whatever. And since I went digital it can be two trains, but it's tricky to set them at a speed where their relative speeds are constant. So I figured I need to log that. I've timed each loco for one lap at notch 15 on a Massoth Navi. So I at least know which pairs are most likely to run at nearly the same speed for a given speed notch, but what else do I learn, e.g about how the locos have been built by LGB/Marklin, and are there any other useful implications to draw? Here is the list, fastest first. All are chipped except where indicated.

Marklin Rugen 28003 : 1.29
LGB Railbus 2064, Analogue: 1.32
LGB V251 28515: 1.53
LGB V52 23510: 1.56
LGB ZB U Raimund 20705: 1.57
LGB 2091 OBB 22522: 1.58
LGB Meyer 21842: 1.58
LGB Stainz green ex -starter 2.13
LGB ZB U no.2 22711 2.16
LGB Stainz black 23211 2.20

Generally I guess it is what it is. However (dumb question coming up...) I see in my Massoth literature that there is a lot of "stuff" about speed. Is it possible to adjust the speed of the locos? The outlier above is obviously the Rugen, but that has a factory fitted chip.

Very curious about your thoughts on this
 
Last edited:
dunnyrail

dunnyrail

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Certainly possible to have a Top Speed limitation by using CV5. I find a value in the 80’s gives me roughly 20 Scale KPH on most locomotives, that is the Max on the Selktalbahn. By default CV5 will be 255 which is pretty fast for most Narrow Gauge requirements.

I register the Speed by using an app on the iPhone which can calibrate over 2 Yards. If you have an iPhone or iPad the Free App you need is called ‘Model Speed’.
 
David K

David K

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Offaly, Ireland
Like Dunnyrail, I adjusted CV5 for maximum speed and adjusted acceleration and braking CVs to mimic real performance. I marked a straight section of track and timed the locos at different speed settings through this section. Using a calculator, I determined the scale speed so that my diesel (V52/RhB 241) runs at 30 kph on maximum speed and the electric locos run between 40 and 50 kph. This is realistic for the size of my layout and matches RhB practice.
 
R

RH Prague

Central European. the station pub is Czech !!
28 Oct 2009
318
13
Prague
dunnyrail dunnyrail , thanks a lot, I will certainly be able to get hold of that IOS app.

I will then have to study the whole CV thing around speed but as a basic question on that.... if I reduce the top speed using CV255, will that also reduce the rate of acceleration to that speed? because that is what I would aim to change with the Rugen.
 
P

phils2um

Phil S
11 Sep 2015
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I started working on this for my layout but have gotten sidetracked.;) The Märklin CS3 let you calibrate the speed display. I began by setting the max displayed speed to the 1:1 lok's max speed plus a small cushion. For example I set my Ge 6/6 I (Vmax=55kph) croc's max displayed speed to 60kph. Next, I set the decoders speed table to be linear. The final step is to match the displayed speed to actual scale speed using CV5 and a timed run through a level straight section of track. I use my bridge which happens to be 4.5m total length as a convenient start/stop point.

This is easy to do with Massoth and ESU decoders using the Massoth PC-module and ESU Lokprogrammer. I've yet to try calibrating my mfx chipped loks.

A related thing I've also not gotten to yet is building a speed/distance measuring car using a cheap Hall sensor bicycle speedometer as some others on this forum have done.
 
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dunnyrail

dunnyrail

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dunnyrail dunnyrail , thanks a lot, I will certainly be able to get hold of that IOS app.

I will then have to study the whole CV thing around speed but as a basic question on that.... if I reduce the top speed using CV255, will that also reduce the rate of acceleration to that speed? because that is what I would aim to change with the Rugen.
No rate of acceleration is CV3 then you get braking time CV4 and mid speed CV6 plus the dreaded CV29 that can change Speed Steps which can also effect speed up and down. Best not to play with CV29, I generally find that CV5 is all I need to play with.

If you try the others note what it was so that you can return to the original value if you are not happy with any changes that you have made. Good practice suggest that you should always note what your CV’s were before you start playing around. Though you can always go back to default settings but you may have got the odd one to your liking!

Have fun.
 
David K

David K

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R RH Prague , I checked the values for my MLGB Ge4/4II and they read CV5 Max Speed default is 255 but I reduced to 200, then CV3 - acceleration delay and CV4 - braking delay are set to 25 (default is 5). This gives smooth acceleration and a gentle glide to a halt.

David
 
Greg Elmassian

Greg Elmassian

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I took a simplistic approach, since I use 128 speed steps on everything, I map the scale speed to the speed step, (flattening off at the max prototype speed)

Then no matter where I go, any loco I have runs the same at the same speed step, and with 24v on the rails, the speed step is indeed scale speed.

Greg
 
ntpntpntp

ntpntpntp

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If you try [modifying CVs] note what it was so that you can return to the original value if you are not happy with any changes that you have made. Good practice suggest that you should always note what your CV’s were before you start playing around. Though you can always go back to default settings but you may have got the odd one to your liking!
If you're going to do a lot of that sort of fiddling then use a software programmer such as JMRI DecoderPro, which will save the entire decoder CV settings as a "roster entry" under the loco's address, allowing you to restore the lot if you screw up! It's also a much more friendly way to adjust CVs than trying to putting strange numbers into a DCC throttle. It'll de-mystify CV29 :)

If JMRI doesn't support a PC interface your particular DCC system then get a little SPROG hardware interface box; I've used one for many years for decoders of various makes and scales.

JMRI

SPROG
 
R

RH Prague

Central European. the station pub is Czech !!
28 Oct 2009
318
13
Prague
Thanks for the latest replies. Last night I was also reviewing the excellent Dummies Guide prepared by stockers stockers in the Digital section, however I am not clear about whether the range of info there applies for locos which have a factory fitted LGB decoder rather than a Massoth decoder (I have a Massoth Navi). Can anyone clarify, before I start experimenting with the speed on such a loco?
 
dunnyrail

dunnyrail

DOGS, Garden Railways, Steam Trains, Jive Dancing,
25 Oct 2009
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Thanks for the latest replies. Last night I was also reviewing the excellent Dummies Guide prepared by stockers stockers in the Digital section, however I am not clear about whether the range of info there applies for locos which have a factory fitted LGB decoder rather than a Massoth decoder (I have a Massoth Navi). Can anyone clarify, before I start experimenting with the speed on such a loco?
Ok so CV’s on LGB.
CV2 Start Voltage Max 255
CV3 Acceleration Time Max 255
CV4 Deceleration Time Max 255
CV5 Top Speed Max 255

I have just been playing around with a Corpet that has a LocSound Decoder fitted, it was virtually undrivable for a novice having a very high speed and acceleration/deceleration values that meant if you hit max speed it was near impossible to stop without crunching something.

So after many moons of waiting to get round to it I have just updated some CV’s as shown. Note the Max are different to LGB but shows what can be done, it is now controllable and the Max Speed is more like one would associate on a Metre Gauge Corpet. No Sprogs, JMRI gizmos were damaged or even used in my updates just using my Massoth Handheld and Programming Track.
CV2 Start Voltage Max 75 default 3 NOT TOUCHED
CV3 Acceleration Time Max 64 default 8, set to 4 revised to 2
CV4 Deceleration Time Max 64 default 8, set to 6 revised to 2
CV5 Top Speed Max 64 default 64, set to 64 revised to 25

Needless to say I have noted the revisions and they now sit in the Folder with the Decoder Instructions.
 
Neil Robinson

Neil Robinson

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Thanks for the latest replies. Last night I was also reviewing the excellent Dummies Guide prepared by stockers stockers in the Digital section, however I am not clear about whether the range of info there applies for locos which have a factory fitted LGB decoder rather than a Massoth decoder (I have a Massoth Navi). Can anyone clarify, before I start experimenting with the speed on such a loco?
I understand your caution but there comes a time when you need to learn by experience.
At the risk of stating the obvious and repeating advice I suggest the following.
Choose a time when you are unlikely to be disturbed.
Get/download a copy of the manual for the decoder you intend working on.
Read CV8 (decoder ID) and check it matches the value in your in your instructions.
Make a habit of reading and noting the value of a CV before changing it. If something unexpected occurs you could then easily revert to the original value.
Be aware that there is often no "right" value of a CV just a value that suits you best.
Good luck, don't be afraid of learning from correcting any mistakes you may make.
 
Greg Elmassian

Greg Elmassian

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I agree wholeheartedly, get the manual for the decoder and use that as the guide. "Cookbook" learning will never give you the "feel" for what you are doing. If you understand the basic concepts and have the manual for the unique CV definitions you will fare better.

I also strongly underscore Neil's recommendation of recording the CV value before changing, so you can put it back if you get to a strange state.

Greg
 
R

RH Prague

Central European. the station pub is Czech !!
28 Oct 2009
318
13
Prague
Evening guys, thanks for the supportive posts, and I am reporting that I pretty much did what you advocate, and certainly I now feel confident in the actual process of changing CVs.

It turned out that the Rugen top speed was set to the max 255, which surprised me as this is a model i bought new, so its a factory pre-set. No wonder it was flying around like a Scalextric car. So I reduced it to 125 and eventually 75; and then I have been playing with CV3/4/6, and am not sure I have the right balance yet. But the most important thing is that at least i know how to do this, thanks to this forum.

One issue is that with this LGB/Marklin model (28003) the enclosed manual does not detail the factory pre-sets, but since I bought it new, i assume that they were what I read initially, and for the record they were:
CV5 : 255
CV3: 10
CV4: 4
CV6: 32

More testing work to do with 3/4/6 , but at least the loco is now behaving like a narrow gauge steam loco rather than a F1 racer.
 
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R

RH Prague

Central European. the station pub is Czech !!
28 Oct 2009
318
13
Prague
Hmm, well this is a bit odd. I changed the Rugen CVs a bit, as i mentioned above, and CV200 is now set at 100. Well it is and it isn't, because when i go back and read it on the Navi it has gone back to 255 - but the loco does not actually go back to that very fast top speed. Also the other three CVs I changed are reading the changed settings still. I've just double checked that just now, same status.

Any idea why that might happen?

It's not the Navi, I have two, and the other one gives the same readings. This is a Marklin factory fitted chip, not a Massoth retro-fit...
 
PhilP

PhilP

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Hmm, well this is a bit odd. I changed the Rugen CVs a bit, as i mentioned above, and CV200 is now set at 100. Well it is and it isn't, because when i go back and read it on the Navi it has gone back to 255 - but the loco does not actually go back to that very fast top speed. Also the other three CVs I changed are reading the changed settings still. I've just double checked that just now, same status.

Any idea why that might happen?

It's not the Navi, I have two, and the other one gives the same readings. This is a Marklin factory fitted chip, not a Massoth retro-fit...
Now I am a little confused..
A post, or two, ago you said CV 5 (top speed) was set to 255. - Which makes sense to me.

In this post, you state you are changing CV 200?

Are you changing the correct CV, and have type the wrong number?
OR
Are you changing the wrong CV?

PhilP.
 
dunnyrail

dunnyrail

DOGS, Garden Railways, Steam Trains, Jive Dancing,
25 Oct 2009
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St.Neots Cambridgeshire UK
Now I am a little confused..
A post, or two, ago you said CV 5 (top speed) was set to 255. - Which makes sense to me.

In this post, you state you are changing CV 200?

Are you changing the correct CV, and have type the wrong number?
OR
Are you changing the wrong CV?

PhilP.
Me too.
 
Greg Elmassian

Greg Elmassian

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I'd suggest setting your speed first, and leave the momentum at zero (accel and decel) ....

Once you have start, mid and top speed set, then play with the momentum.

Also, post 4 mentions CV 255, and post 15 mentions CV 200.... does not sound right.

Also, you should adjust start speed FIRST..., then top.... often mid speed does not need changing if the loco increases speed smoothly through the range.

Notice I am using the NAMES of the CV's instead of the CV numbers? You want to be referring to your decoder manual and KNOW this CV's or be able to look them up easily.

Greg
 
R

RH Prague

Central European. the station pub is Czech !!
28 Oct 2009
318
13
Prague
Doh! At ease, everyone, red face time:blush:. For some reason i had in my head that CV200 is top speed, whereas it is sound, the other CV I have played with. CV5 is as I set it. CV 200 comes up at 255 because it is an LGB chip, and this means "external potentiometer", which I assume to mean i can only change the sound with the manual control on the loco.

I'll put the speed CV's back to factory settings and approach it as Greg suggests above
 
PhilP

PhilP

G Scale, 7/8th's, Electronics
5 Jun 2013
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493
Tamworth, Staffs.
T'is easily done.. T'is also easier to see the 'slip' when removed a distance from the problem.

Glad you are on track again. :):nod: