LGB frog wear

[Rosco]

I have two R1 LGB points which are showing signs of wear on the pointy V shaped bit, technical term frog i think. Does anybody know if this is normal?. I've had them for about a year and my Accucraft wagons are starting to skip a bit too much for my liking.

 

[Rosco]

If you are running longer wheel base locos the plastic frogs and check rails on LGB points do tend to wear, especially if all your rolling stock has metal wheels too. What locos do you regularly run? You might need to upgrade to R3 points.

I run 0 4 0 live steam engines on a layout that does not have a lot of space. The upgrade to R3 points could be the way to go, but a bit too costly to replace at the moment.

 

[LTfan]

This site has some ideas about fine-tuning LGB turnouts:-

http://www.girr.org/girr/tips/tips1/lgb_1600.html David

 

[Spule 4]

The best option might be, the TrainLine 45 "R-2" points if you are pressed for space and the leading point of the frog is brass.

http://www.train-li-usa.com/store/proswitch-brass-drive-left-p-446.html

 

[LTfan]

If you are running longer wheel base locos the plastic frogs and check rails on LGB points do tend to wear, especially if all your rolling stock has metal wheels too. What locos do you regularly run? You might need to upgrade to R3 points.

I run 0 4 0 live steam engines on a layout that does not have a lot of space. The upgrade to R3 points could be the way to go, but a bit too costly to replace at the moment.

The excessive wear is probably due to the flange profiles of your live steam locos. You may also find that the locos get a gunge of grit and oil on the wheels which makes a good grinding paste. Metal frog points would seem to be the way to go. There are a few companies that sell parts to make your own point such as rail chairs and sleeps. You could use the rail and blades from your LGB points and just make new metal frogs to save expense and time.

This site offers metal frogs for R1 & R3 (He also does a range of turnouts without frogs.)

http://www.modellbau-heyn.de/neuers...messing-herzstueck-fuer-r1-weiche-rechts.html < Link To http://www.modellbau-heyn...-r1-weiche-rechts.html

Google translation:-

For the R1-Soft, we offer a heart of brass, which is polarized and is significantly more stable than the plastic version.
The power supply is continuously available and therefore the tip of the nerve center also keeps constant driving up.

This pic is of his R/H R1 frog, costing Euro 19.90

David

 

[Rosco]

Thanks so much for your advice everyone.

 

[stevedenver]

you know something that makes a big difference is to add a bit of metal sheeting to the outside of the guide opposite the frog-often the slop you experience is more due to play between the flange and the guide rail

my R1 frogs also show a bit of wear but imho it is the guide rail that allows wheels the free play that causes issues

 

[Doug]

Live steam locos are rather heavy, so probably cause more wear on plastic points parts. Plus they 'only just' go round R1 so will cause more wear.

 

[corgi]

Live steam locos are rather heavy, so probably cause more wear on plastic points parts. Plus they 'only just' go R1 so will cause more wear.

The live steamies will also chop out the R3's.
Extending the check rail is the easiest solution in the first case.
With R1's you are limited to what you can run and reverses in R1 are not enjoyable.

Funny how some can spend heaps on loco's but go cheap on the trackwork?

 

[hornbeam]

With the price of track now nout is cheap! I guess that metal frog will still have to be a 'dead' one. I really must sort the check rails out on mine, also how hard is it to remove the plastic frog?

 

[Rosco]

you know something that makes a big difference is to add a bit of metal sheeting to the outside of the guide opposite the frog-often the slop you experience is more due to play between the flange and the guide rail

my R1 frogs also show a bit of wear but imho it is the guide rail that allows wheels the free play that causes issues

Thanks Steve, i did what you said and it has solved the problem. Everything runs so much smoother.

 

[coyote97]

this is a problem of lgb-switches since years. the r3 are worse! extensions to "repair" the guardrail are made mostly because of the bad R3 performance.
while the flanges of the LGB vehicles are so big and broad that they will go even through great canyon, some other wheelforms are "climbing up" the frog everytime.
First i tried to repair this with extensions, but someday i decided to take the bad pill and take everything of this stuff out and replace it with good switches: works properly!

I am just somekind of angry, because LGB switches are an industiral product that is not CHEAP. Not reallly expensive, but not cheap.
Therefore i think it would have been possible to make the guardrail half an inch longer (problem no. 1) and the guardrail-channel a bit more slender.
That is not a question of more complexity or the need of more material (1/4 Cent maybe???), its shows just how arrogant the constructors of LGB sometimes were.

One time i met my switches-supplier, a member of his staff was there and we let some of my AMS cars roll arround on his Garden RR.
He lifted one of my cars, looked at the wheels and said: "look here, thats what i always say: you dont need flanges as high as the rails to have a good performance."
even though ALL LGB flanges are going through his switches, i never had any problem to drive EVERY wheel i ever had.
Accucraft Life steam, AMS, Bachmann, LGB.
On a critical point where i thought the LGB R3 was the only switch to fit in, i had one layed for some months, but in the end i gave the last one of them a kick......its not worth the cent u pay for. And it COULD be so much better, with minimal action....


Frank

 

[Rhinochugger]

this is a problem of lgb-switches since years. the r3 are worse! extensions to "repair" the guardrail are made mostly because of the bad R3 performance.
while the flanges of the LGB vehicles are so big and broad that they will go even through great canyon, some other wheelforms are "climbing up" the frog everytime.
First i tried to repair this with extensions, but someday i decided to take the bad pill and take everything of this stuff out and replace it with good switches: works properly!

I am just somekind of angry, because LGB switches are an industiral product that is not CHEAP. Not reallly expensive, but not cheap.
Therefore i think it would have been possible to make the guardrail half an inch longer (problem no. 1) and the guardrail-channel a bit more slender.
That is not a question of more complexity or the need of more material (1/4 Cent maybe???), its shows just how arrogant the constructors of LGB sometimes were.

One time i met my switches-supplier, a member of his staff was there and we let some of my AMS cars roll arround on his Garden RR.
He lifted one of my cars, looked at the wheels and said: "look here, thats what i always say: you dont need flanges as high as the rails to have a good performance."
even though ALL LGB flanges are going through his switches, i never had any problem to drive EVERY wheel i ever had.
Accucraft Life steam, AMS, Bachmann, LGB.
On a critical point where i thought the LGB R3 was the only switch to fit in, i had one layed for some months, but in the end i gave the last one of them a kick......its not worth the cent u pay for. And it COULD be so much better, with minimal action....


Frank

For a moment, I thought I was listening to myself

I agree, frank

 

[minimans]

this is a problem of lgb-switches since years. the r3 are worse! extensions to "repair" the guardrail are made mostly because of the bad R3 performance.
while the flanges of the LGB vehicles are so big and broad that they will go even through great canyon, some other wheelforms are "climbing up" the frog everytime.
First i tried to repair this with extensions, but someday i decided to take the bad pill and take everything of this stuff out and replace it with good switches: works properly!

I am just somekind of angry, because LGB switches are an industiral product that is not CHEAP. Not reallly expensive, but not cheap.
Therefore i think it would have been possible to make the guardrail half an inch longer (problem no. 1) and the guardrail-channel a bit more slender.
That is not a question of more complexity or the need of more material (1/4 Cent maybe???), its shows just how arrogant the constructors of LGB sometimes were.

One time i met my switches-supplier, a member of his staff was there and we let some of my AMS cars roll arround on his Garden RR.
He lifted one of my cars, looked at the wheels and said: "look here, thats what i always say: you dont need flanges as high as the rails to have a good performance."
even though ALL LGB flanges are going through his switches, i never had any problem to drive EVERY wheel i ever had.
Accucraft Life steam, AMS, Bachmann, LGB.
On a critical point where i thought the LGB R3 was the only switch to fit in, i had one layed for some months, but in the end i gave the last one of them a kick......its not worth the cent u pay for. And it COULD be so much better, with minimal action....


Frank

It comes down to the fact that they work just fine with the Loco's and stock that they were designed for LGB!! Why should they have redesigned them so they work with other Makes of train? I have been using R1 and R3 points for over 20 years and have no problems with LGB stuff running through them, it's only my non-LGB stuff that gave problems so I modified them accordingly. Having said that the electrical side of things is a bit Naff! and I've had to solder wires and all sorts but trains running through the pointy bit not really a problem.

 

[coyote97]

Hi Miniman,

there was a (short) time when i learned some things about railway, trains and switches. There were the one or other i repaired or measured it.
From this i know how a switch should look and work.
And therefore i know, that the fact LGB´s aree running properly not makes those products well.

Its just that kind of arrogance that i told from:
They wanted half the US to buy their stuff to run on foreign track but other stuff mustnt run on their own track.
First u can think thats clever: because if one wants to have LGB track, he has to run LGB stuff.....more money!
More profit!

But they did wrong with that. Many customers didnt feel pressed into buying LGB, they did NOT buy it because of such decissions.

Like so many other decissions! Wrong decissions!
This company is off! its just a name now!

"please change the guardrails of R3".......nothing
"please change the "toy"-lamprings to less clumsy"......nothing......but a fictive paint variant of the RHB Crocodile
"please change the "toy"-appearance of the rods."....nothing..........but another ficitve paint variant of the RHB Crocodile
"please change the flanges and make it smaller".......nothing.......trains would have derailed because of the bad switches. But there was space for a third paint variant of the RHB crocodile
"please change the chrome-appearance of the wheels".....nothing....

...that went on to ...as far as i know 5 or 6 paint variants of the RHB crocodile. Do u know why?
Because there were a handfull of "premium-customers" who bought blind every loco LGB made. Those ones often didnt drive just one foot. And when, many of them had high quality-switches, because LGB took 40 Years or so to bring out a R5 switch!!! With the frog in the curve, the frog as bad as in all other switches and the same bad guardrails. The only reason why these R5 are working is that they are long enough what prevents them from beeing the same rubbish as the R3.

And THAT behavior is named arrogance.
Märklin had the same, and the same destiny caught them!

Therefore:
As long as you are the only producer worldwide, u can do what u want. But when u want to play with others, u have to ask for the rules.


Frank

P.S.: what does not mean, that all is to be kicked out. There ARE things that can be done. Surely.

 

[korm kormsen]

it is interesting, how different the same things are seen by different people.
my two oldest LGB R1 turnouts do serve me well since 71 (or 72)
now i got 16 R1 and 2 R3 turnouts. all LGB.
when a train derailed, there was allways a reason like something stuck between the tongues and the rail or similar.
not even the weels/aixles made by our village-smith made any problems.
even my Bachmann starterset train runs well over the turnouts, after i regauged the flange to flange distance properly for 45mm track.

 

[coyote97]

Hi Korm,

i had R3 and i first had LGB stuff, later i changed to american style with Bachmann.

While the Bachmanns dont run on R1 theres no possibility to compare. but there is nearly nothing that could be send over the R3 in the critical direction without getting a derailment.
Later the AMS cars were worse.
Now i have only highquality switches from thiel, and now i can drive everything, even a double-loco pushed train with 6m length through the 1200mm Radius curved switch.

Many people i know told me that their LGB stuff ran better on R1 switches than it does on R3 after changing.

LGB R3 are known as the most expensive step down before reaching LEGO-Train.

i´d like to have a village-smith that makes such a precision! I have all the machnery i need and didnt dare making wheels till now.

but confess!!!! its not good enough to let run a LCE!


(btw: i havent seen an LCE here in the forum....a)

Frank

 

[minimans]

Hi Miniman,

there was a (short) time when i learned some things about railway, trains and switches. There were the one or other i repaired or measured it.
From this i know how a switch should look and work.
And therefore i know, that the fact LGB´s aree running properly not makes those products well.

Its just that kind of arrogance that i told from:
They wanted half the US to buy their stuff to run on foreign track but other stuff mustnt run on their own track.
First u can think thats clever: because if one wants to have LGB track, he has to run LGB stuff.....more money!
More profit!

But they did wrong with that. Many customers didnt feel pressed into buying LGB, they did NOT buy it because of such decissions.

Like so many other decissions! Wrong decissions!
This company is off! its just a name now!

"please change the guardrails of R3".......nothing
"please change the "toy"-lamprings to less clumsy"......nothing......but a fictive paint variant of the RHB Crocodile
"please change the "toy"-appearance of the rods."....nothing..........but another ficitve paint variant of the RHB Crocodile
"please change the flanges and make it smaller".......nothing.......trains would have derailed because of the bad switches. But there was space for a third paint variant of the RHB crocodile
"please change the chrome-appearance of the wheels".....nothing....

...that went on to ...as far as i know 5 or 6 paint variants of the RHB crocodile. Do u know why?
Because there were a handfull of "premium-customers" who bought blind every loco LGB made. Those ones often didnt drive just one foot. And when, many of them had high quality-switches, because LGB took 40 Years or so to bring out a R5 switch!!! With the frog in the curve, the frog as bad as in all other switches and the same bad guardrails. The only reason why these R5 are working is that they are long enough what prevents them from beeing the same rubbish as the R3.

And THAT behavior is named arrogance.
Märklin had the same, and the same destiny caught them!

Therefore:
As long as you are the only producer worldwide, u can do what u want. But when u want to play with others, u have to ask for the rules.


Frank

P.S.: what does not mean, that all is to be kicked out. There ARE things that can be done. Surely.

LGB at the time WERE the only people making mass produced 45mm track! if we use your argument why were the other manufacturers so arrogant as to produce products that didnt work on LGB track? and when the others did produce there own track it was a direct copy of LGB? only at the later stages were company's like Train Li producing improved track systems.
Why would a company make expensive changes to track design when for the majority of people that bought the product there was no problem?

LGB ALWAYS produced toy trains NOT scale models so wheel flanges were wide and deep so people could play with there trains and not have them fall off the track every 5 Min's.

Re-paint's are a cheep way of changing /updating a proven seller and they did sell so why not? and as for fictious liverys? again they made toys NOT scale models so why not?

R5 switches? yes they took a long time coming and seemed to be a response to others bringing out big switches but Rubbish bad design? I have two which seem to work perfectly every time with ALL makes of train including my live steamers so I don't quite see your point (Pun Unintended)
And to all your negative comments about LGB track I say if it doesn't work for you then scratch building your own would be a viable alternative?

 

[korm kormsen]

i´d like to have a village-smith that makes such a precision! I have all the machnery i need and didnt dare making wheels till now.

but confess!!!! its not good enough to let run a LCE!

his mashine for turning was imported used in the 70ies.

i got two types of "local"weels.
at the left you see aixles turned in one piece from some white plastic.
i coloured them with a permanent feltmarker.
but i prefer the type at the right side.
they are individual steelweels with short aixle stubs. turned out of a broken powertransmission rod (kardan) and connected by pipes of hard plastic.
as you can see in the pic, both types are somewhat rough, not polished. but they get smoother from running.

even the weels shown in the second pic have no problems with R1 or R3.
and they are from the cheapest chinese stuff, one can imagine.
(remember the yellow Western passenger cars, that were offered for ten euro during more than a year on german ebay? i bought ten of them for Eu 6.80 each (including postage))

i can only stress my point: on points there is nothing more important, than the inside distance between flanges.

 

[coyote97]

@miniman

perhaps its a bit overdone what i said. Perhaps my opinions are basing on experiences i made that many other didnt.
AND i mixed up some things: the question was how to get rid of the problem, and not why the problem with the worn frog appeared.

Why do i become so upset while talking about those things?

In the last years, i saw a lot of companys in Germany go down just because their unbelievable arrogance. Manufaturers of machines, tools, textiles lost orders and money just by saying: (just to proof what i mean with arrogance)

"we did that for the last 30 years like this, so the strategy cant be bad for the next 30"

"the customers should take what we offer"

"in the last 17 Years, NO faulty part has left my house"

In the model-railroad-branch there was another bad influence: the customers were divided in a mass-market and premium-market (what is not that bad basically).
But the effect was fatal:
simple mass-production-products rose in price for more than 200% innert 7 or 8 Years. Why? "Customers demand more details, so we changed the rod-coating from chrome to nicle"... a joke, but true.
They needed the money to
1.) pay their managers (when märklin went insolvent, the mangers had an earning from annualized 700-1000 Euro an hour!
2.) pay for prestige-projects for just a few premium-premium-premium- customers.

As a result, they sold expensive mass-ware with toy-charakter and super-expensive premium-ware in low amounts with many technical problems (because of the teething troubles).

Another (oposite)example, another branch: Porsche
When Mr. Wiedeking entered the company (he didnt make many faults, but his one an final!!) he checked the company and found out some interesting things:
the "cheap" 928-series (folks porsche) brought NO money, and the prestige-projekt 959 (what was a great car--no question) made costs of over 2 mio. DM per car. And was sold for just about 500.000.
He threw out all those bad projects and found a line: premium products for a premium market....not just for a handfull off super-riches.
Before, it was a "managing beside the market"

This is, what makes me so upset.
And especially in the Tracks question with LGB.

Makingt the guardrail a bit longer and a bit more precise (all that could be done in the original tool) could have made those switches work MUCH better.

But the calling for years and years to change that hit just dumb ears. And so the most important part of the customers began to search after alternatives....like me: the ones "between": we want valuable models of good quality and a customers service. An open ear.
"THE RICH" werent enough to make much money, "THE POOR" ever just bought starter kits, whats even not enough to make money.

And like this, a company goes down......but LESS companies made that against the (loud shouted) advice of their most reliable advisor: their customers.

LGB did.
Märklin did.

THATS why im so upset.

So, btw, it is some kind of "Off topic", i confess.....


Frank