Has anyone damaged an analog loco motor on an LGB MTS system?

Sammler · 21 Apr 2011

I've been thinking about using a pre-digital Stainz loco on an LGB digital layout and have read that using locomotives in analogue mode can (in theory) burn out the motor. Has anyone actually damaged an analogue locomotives motor on an MTS digital track?

The MTS instructions say that LGB analogue locomotives work fine on digital track so I thought that all the rumours regarding motor damage might be from other companies products or maybe from users who run smaller scale locomotives with tiny motors.

Zerogee · 21 Apr 2011

As far as I'm aware, there should be no problem, apparently there can be some noise from the motor but it is supposed to be harmless to it. However if you're adding the old Stainz to your stable, why not chip it anyway? Even the oldest ones can be done quite easily if you're prepared to take them apart - I've Massoth-chipped (with sound) a very old brown-cab Stainz No.1 with the small D-shape rear coupling ('70s-built), and it works fine.

Jon.

Gizzy · 21 Apr 2011

I've recently gone to the dark side of MTS, but I haven't yet chipped all my (LGB) loco fleet.

So I have run the odd LGB analogue loco, whilst I save up for the decoders

MTS2 actually has an analogue mode, where you can run a loco on address 0, so it has been designed so you can do precisely that.

I can't comment though for using LGB MTS with any other manufacturers locos....

stockers · 21 Apr 2011

LGB use a good quality motor that is quite capable of taking the 'hum' that digital signals give analogue motors. Piko recommend fitting a chip before running thier items on digital - presumeably they use cheaper motors. Indeed, Mike here did kill the motors in his Piko railcar.
The Stainz is as tough as they come - it will be fine.

Phil · 21 Apr 2011

As everybody has said that some manufactures like LGB will be able to cope with the signals sent down the track by your MTS system but some brands such as bachmann and aristocraft you will have to do a modification to the motor otherwise the Motors will over heat and short circuit your system... this can damage your Digital system aswell as your locos.
My suggestion is run only LGB locos on your Dcc track, and try to chip most of your Engines this will provide more running capabilities and also give you more enjoyment...

ntpntpntp · 21 Apr 2011

In reality it is something that's more likely to actually cause damage in small scale locos as the big motors used in G scale generally can take the abuse.

For me personally, I won't do it (run unchipped locos on dcc) but the bottom line is it's something for you to weigh up the pros and cons. In my mind it's just not the right thing to do, to have current permanently flowing through the motor of a loco that's not moving. All you're doing is heating up the motor (potentially damaging it in the long term) and wasting power. It works by artificially "bending" (so to speak) the timing of the dcc control signal in the track to bias it to one polarity or the other so that the unchipped motor "sees" a voltage difference and moves. The impression I get is that the ability to run unchipped on dcc systems is accepted to have been a bit of a "kludge" and is falling out of favour these days. My own dcc system (by NCE) doesn't support it (not since a very early version many years ago).

If you must do it, I'd recommend keeping it to a minimum and isolate the loco in a switchable siding or section when not in use.

ntpntpntp · 21 Apr 2011

Phil said:
... but some brands such as bachmann and aristocraft you will have to do a modification to the motor otherwise the Motors will over heat and short circuit your system...

There's no mod that I know of to get round the root of the problem, other than to fit a decoder!!

I think I read somewhere that certain Piko locos when unchipped tend to "blow up" if placed on dcc track due to the suppression capacitors not being able to take the full MTS voltage. Not a problem with the actual motor itself. Also remember that general opinion recommends these capacitors must/should be removed when fitting a decoder anyway, as otherwise they interfere with back-EMF sensing in the decoder.

whatlep · 21 Apr 2011

ntpntpntp said:
I think I read somewhere that certain Piko locos when unchipped tend to "blow up" if placed on dcc track due to the suppression capacitors not being able to take the full MTS voltage.

You're most likely thinking of recent issues of the Piko railbus which have explicit instructions not to run them in analogue mode on DCC as capacitors will be destroyed be the AC supply used by DCC systems. Earlier versions (the DB red one in particular) had a different circuit and - notwithstanding Mike's experience - run just fine on DCC (mine did for a month before chipped).

At Ruritanian Railways open days, many of the "regulars" run their analogue stuff on my LGB MTS system and we've never yet had a casualty, even with heavy US-outline stock pulling 4 amps on analogue.

Westcott · 21 Apr 2011

I've run an analogue Bachmann Annie, an Aristo/Delton C16, and 3 Aristocraft F1s (that'll be the 4 Amps!) on Whatlep's track at address 0 without any problems at all. They all hum gently to themselves when stationary.
Other visitors to his track do just the same with a wide variety of locos, all without problems.
As Gizzy states - that's what adress 0 is meant to do, and it does it perfectly in my opinion.

muns · 21 Apr 2011

Good old zero streching.....

Philbahn · 25 Apr 2011

With SWIMBO treating me to a chip for my birthday I decided to let Glacier on Tour sit it out yesterday.
So from 11'o,clock till 8pm it just sat there humming with no ill effects. nothing burnt out and it still runs

Philbahn · 25 Apr 2011

Dont really think the extra 5 volts will make much difference. 19 -24 in fact I think MTS only puts out 22 volt

Gizzy · 25 Apr 2011

Philbahn said:
Dont really think the extra 5 volts will make much difference. 19 -24 in fact I think MTS only puts out 22 volt

Reading my manual today for MTS2, and it says the Central Station output is 18 V. The 55010 Power Supply I have with it is 22 V....

KeithT · 25 Apr 2011

I happened to check my MTSIII the other day during my aggros with the Piko points and it is putting out 18.4V.
For nearly 4 yrs I have run a couple of Bachmann Annies, and a K27, 2 HLW locos and a USATrains Mighty Mo all for dozens of hours on "0" on the MTS without problems. (I hope I don't regret this observation!!

)
Some locos buzz loudly others not so loudly.

yb281 · 25 Apr 2011

KeithT said:
For nearly 4 yrs I have run a couple of Bachmann Annies, and a K27, 2 HLW locos and a USATrains Mighty Mo all for dozens of hours on "0" on the MTS without problems. (I hope I don't regret this observation!! )

Sale fire station is on full alert Keith

.

whatlep · 25 Apr 2011

Philbahn said:
Dont really think the extra 5 volts will make much difference. 19 -24 in fact I think MTS only puts out 22 volt

MTS puts out 18 volts RMS (root mean square) as do all systems compliant with NMRA standard S9.1. However, the real voltage which is output varies around that nominal standard. Maximum voltage at the peak of the AC sine wave is indeed 22 volts as defined by the NMRA standard.

KeithT · 25 Apr 2011

yb281 said:
KeithT said:

For nearly 4 yrs I have run a couple of Bachmann Annies, and a K27, 2 HLW locos and a USATrains Mighty Mo all for dozens of hours on "0" on the MTS without problems. (I hope I don't regret this observation!! )

Click to expand...

Sale fire station is on full alert Keith .

:crying:

Gerard · 27 Oct 2021

Reading this thread , not being an expert on dcc systems, i became a bit confused: A dcc track is powered by AC, isn't it?
So how can you run an analog DC loco without a decoder in it on this AC power?? What is so special on this address "0" ?

Gerard

Greg Elmassian · 27 Oct 2021

Gerard, you have revived an old thread, and there was some good data in the thread and some wrong data.

Address 0 means "pulse stretching" and it was very "rough" on motors, and did cause heating and physical noise.

I would suggest you read up on the subject to get good data. It has NOTHING to do with addressing, but the radical change in the DCC waveform.

Zero Stretching

Zero Stretching is an optional feature of Digital Command Control, allowing operation of a DC–powered locomotive on DCC–powered rails. Also known as 'Zero Bit Stretching' in the DCC specifications and informally referred to as 'Address 00'.

dccwiki.com

Greg

ntpntpntp · 27 Oct 2021

Gerard DCC is not like traditional sine wave AC. If you look up the details it's a variable pulse width square wave which spans either side of zero.

DCC Power

There is a technique known as "zero stretching" which *some* DCC systems support, basically it distorts the DCC signal so that to a motor it looks like there is a polarity bias and hence the motor will turn. It's a technique from the early days of DCC and has been falling out of favour for many years (see my earlier posts on this thread from 10 years ago

) In the smaller scales it's definitely discouraged now, and indeed Bachmann's EZ-Command system instructions specifically warn against its use on N gauge models. Some DCC systems don't implement it.

"Address 0" doesn't exist (well actually it is a "broadcast address" according to the NMRA spec.) It's simply a method/button *some* DCC systems use to call up the zero-stretching function to run an unchipped loco on DCC Not every DCC system uses the same method: for example on the Bachmann EZ-Command system it is "address 10".

I'll still stand by my original comments all those years ago: don't use it!! For the sake of spending a little more to buy and fit a decoder, it's just not worth the risk of damage. Placing an unchipped loco on DCC means there is power flowing through the motor even when stationary, which can't be good for it. If you listen closely you can hear the motor of an unchipped loco "singing" if placed on DCC track. Some of the newer design coreless motors in small scale models can fry very rapidly because they simply don't have a lump of metal "core" to help absorb/disperse the heat of the power flowing through the stationary motor!!

Has anyone damaged an analog loco motor on an LGB MTS system?

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