Disaster with my Roundhouse SloMo fitted Jack

dunnyrail · 29 Jun 2017

Rain stayed off yesterday for my running day. However had a real disaster as I decided to run with Live Steam and Battery Power. My beloved Jack somehow managed to burn out the Plastic on the Insulating Wheels, worse than this it also melted the Nylon Gear on my SloMo. So Jack is out of action for an underptermined amount of time.

Not exactly sure what happened as a Live Steam savy friend was driving Jack. The Fire appeared to have gone out but what I suspect had been happening was that the fire had been burning through the back of the Smokebox at the back and heat got into the wheels and subsequently the Nylon Gear on the SloMo. The Smokebox is a little loose after Chuffer Fitting many years ago, the tightening screw is pretty imposible to reach. May nee to change this to.a Hex Headed Screw that can be reached by a small spanner. The heat must have been pretty high as the pictures will show, have checked the Boiler this morning and there was water still in it. Filled up the Boiler and no leaks so Boiler is sound still. All very worrying and Jack is now in bits on the workbench, have contacted Terry to ask about what can be done with the SloMo unit and will need acouple of New Insulating Wheels for the front 2 drivers from Roundhouse, though I may investigate turning some new Tufnol Insulating Bushes as replacements as the Wheels are fine.

Melted Insulation Wheels on the workbench.

Trashed white nylon gear wheel (centre of the picture), around 8 or so of the Cogs have melted.

JonD

Zerogee · 29 Jun 2017

Sorry to hear of the mishap, JonD, hope you can get it sorted out and the SloMo repaired.....

Jon.

casey jones snr · 29 Jun 2017

Blimey Jon, that is an unusual occurrence. I hope you get the locomotive back into service soon.

G-force1 · 29 Jun 2017

OUCH!!

PhilP · 29 Jun 2017

Forgive my ignorance Jon,
What is this loco fired with? spirit? gas?

Could the forward motion have 'fanned' the flame / heat backwards, whilst the loco was running? - Just trying to understand this.

Live-steam is definitely in the 'Alchemy' camp to me..

Rhinochugger · 29 Jun 2017

Not sure how Roundhouse locos light up, but I have an Accucraft live steamer. The most important thing is to make sure that the flame strikes back to the burner, and doesn't stay alight in the smokebox - wonder if this is what happened (or didn't) or whether the flame came back into the smokebox if there was a leak.

All very unhelpful of course now the damage has occurred - not nice.

Might be worth speaking to the helpful people at Doncaster, though. You just don't want any further disaster

Paul M · 29 Jun 2017

Rhinochugger said:
Not sure how Roundhouse locos light up, but I have an Accucraft live steamer. The most important thing is to make sure that the flame strikes back to the burner, and doesn't stay alight in the smokebox - wonder if this is what happened (or didn't) or whether the flame came back into the smokebox if there was a leak.

All very unhelpful of course now the damage has occurred - not nice.

Might be worth speaking to the helpful people at Doncaster, though. You just don't want any further disaster

Looks nasty. I've 2 Accucraft live steamers, they both have a tendency to burn forward in the smoke box if you're not careful, but I've not heard of the flame going back from the burner towards the cab. Mind you plastics and flames aren't usually the best of bedfellows

artfull dodger · 17 Aug 2017

I would say you had a sustained smokebox fire where the flame did not "pop" back to the burner as it is supposed to. There has been discussions that if the "chuffer" isnt positioned just right, it can obstruct the chimney to much on certain models. This forces the hot flue gasses to go somewhere, so out the unsealed bottom where, most of the time, no harm is done. But you have both insulated wheels and the Slomo. The Regner Lumberjack will loose the temper in the springs that keep the os-motor cylinders up against the cylinder block. If you do not need insulated wheels, I would go with non insulated, then make sure you have enough room around the chuffer for the flue gasses to get mostly up the chimney. I had an Accucraft Ruby #5 that had a super thin chimney, and most of the exhaust from the burner went out the bottom of the smokebox. I ended up putting a larger diameter chimney on that model. Mike

dunnyrail · 17 Aug 2017

PhilP said:
Forgive my ignorance Jon,
What is this loco fired with? spirit? gas?

Could the forward motion have 'fanned' the flame / heat backwards, whilst the loco was running? - Just trying to understand this.

Live-steam is definitely in the 'Alchemy' camp to me..

Sorry for not replying earlier Phill, both my Slo Mo fitted Locomotives are Gas Fired as are all Roundhouse these days. What appears to have occured according to the nuce lady at Roundhouse was that the gas flame on a relight did indeed fan around the bottom of the Smokebox and back to the Gear and Wheels. The new gear arrived from Oz just over a week ago now and I finally got round to ordereing some more Insulated Wheels. As it is raining here today in the Nits Jack may get sorted at last.

artfull dodger said:
If you do not need insulated wheels, I would go with non insulated. I ended up putting a larger diameter chimney on that model. Mike

Thanks for your observations, ai certainly still need to keep ainsulated Wheels as I do run Live Steam with electric's sometimes. Though my Battery aspirations may change this, but I have some signals worked from DCC Track Power. I may think about a larger Chimney for Jack,mnot sure what it would do with his aesthetics or Chuffer Sound.
JonD

TLR · 17 Aug 2017

dunnyrail said:
Sorry for not replying earlier Phill, both my Slo Mo fitted Locomotives are Gas Fired as are all Roundhouse these days. What appears to have occured according to the nuce lady at Roundhouse was that the gas flame on a relight did indeed fan around the bottom of the Smokebox and back to the Gear and Wheels. The new gear arrived from Oz just over a week ago now and I finally got round to ordereing some more Insulated Wheels. As it is raining here today in the Nits Jack may get sorted at last.

Thanks for your observations, ai certainly still need to keep ainsulated Wheels as I do run Live Steam with electric's sometimes. Though my Battery aspirations may change this, but I have some signals worked from DCC Track Power. I may think about a kerger Chimney for Jack,mnot sure what it would do with his aesthetics or Chuffer Sound.
JonD

Try running without the chuffer as an experiment, it will be quieter but at least the chimney won't be constricted, on starting it may throw some oil and water out of the chimney but that will soon pass.

Shaun

maxi-model · 17 Aug 2017

Had a "blow back" on my Accucraft C-19 recently. Never experienced this before. A jet of flames shot out, while running, from the gas jet holder. Right past the driver and out the side window. Fried the paint a little and the rx wiring. All fixable.

Point is the loco has its gas tank in the tender in a "warm water" bath to keep up the pressure and make sure the stuff does not stay in its liquid state. Consensus of opinion at the time (one observer had just been on a course about handling gasses )is that the water I'd just topped up the "bath" with was too hot and caused the butane gas to expand expotentially with the resulting flare up. Coincidently this is the only live steamer, 1 of 9, that I have that has a chuffer fitted. 3 others have the water bath arrangement but never had this problem with water at same temp'. Lesson learnt. Max

dunnyrail · 17 Aug 2017

TLR said:
Try running without the chuffer as an experiment, it will be quieter but at least the chimney won't be constricted, on starting it may throw some oil and water out of the chimney but that will soon pass.

Shaun

I may think about this, trouble is the Chuffer is a great addition to the vocalist of the Loco. Also it will require another pretty full deconstruction to refit! What I have started work on is a Fram Spacer and a frame topper that should discourage blowbacks to where the Meltablemparts are. If I get one they should cause any flames to go forwards. Well that is the plan and hope anyway!
JonD

Rhinochugger · 17 Aug 2017

Usually the sound changes if the flame isn't burning at the correct place in the back of the boiler - although I only have experience of Accy US and not Roundhouse.

artfull dodger · 18 Aug 2017

I have myself made a sheet metal plate that slips in place to help "seal" the smoke box a bit better and encouage the heat and such to go up the chimney instead of out the bottom. Just a bit harder on a Roundhouse as thier smoke box doors do not normally open. You might be able to adjust the height of the chuffer to help with the draft up the chimney. Or, do what we all did before Summerlands came about, try your hand at making your own/slimmer version that obstructs the chimney less. I think a certain person from RH had some opinions on the effect of the chuffer on the draft up the chimney. But I wont speculate on that to much here but I believe it had to do with warrenty issue and damage from not enough room for a proper flow up the chimney. Mike

tac foley · 18 Aug 2017

Apropos the C-19 and the water bath. The instructions from Accucraft clearly state 'warm, NOT HOT' water. The early confusion as to what actually constitutes 'warm' in various parts of the USA led to a number of front-flaming engines, in particular the NG/G16 soon after its introduction. Some folks were actually putting boiling water in the tender/tank and the result was a jet or jets of intense flame from end to end of the flue, melted wheel sets and destroyed paintwork.

The OP notes that his driver claimed to be sav[v]y where steam locomotives were concerned. My Marklin S3/6 was nigh-on wrecked by a gentleman making a similar claim a few years back, by driving it around after all the water had gone. The result was predicable - a burnt and bubbled smokebox door and paint, and a bill for around £300 to put it right.

Never clapped eyes on the driver again tho'.

Lesson - don't let anybody except you drive your steam locos. It might cause a few pouty lips, but will be easier on your wallet.

tac

artfull dodger · 18 Aug 2017

Or atleast if you hand over the controls, stay with that person and supervise till your comfortable that the student driver of your engine is ready to fly solo! I have handed the controls over many times on RC engines to kids and parents. But I am right there to supervise the operation and answer any questions they have. Not letting anybody run ones engines is a sure way to put the hobby out of business in a few short years. Quickest way to loosen ones wallet is to experience driving one of these little fire breathing beasts up front and close(and that is not just watching mind you!). I know of two modelers in the nearby area that have a Roundhouse engine in thier stable after running my engine at a show. After lettting them do all the work of prepping, lighting off, waiting for the safety to lift, then turning down the gas till the burner almost cannot be heard followed by a successful run, did they suddenly see why it was worth a couple paychecks to own one of these engines.

tac foley · 18 Aug 2017

Never say never. I guess so, but when a person tells you that he not only builds his own live-steamers, but was an engine driver etc, you tend to trust them.

tac

stockers · 18 Aug 2017

But where is his loco Tac?

maxi-model · 18 Aug 2017

tac foley said:
Apropos the C-19 and the water bath. The instructions from Accucraft clearly state 'warm, NOT HOT' water. tac

The point I was alluding to there was the effect the installed chuff pipe may have had in the whole equation given what else has been said in this thread. Yes, I do like my water "warmer" but have never had a blow back (not out the smoke box but through the gas jet holder vents in the incidence described) before, be it a C-19, K-28 ,NGG 16 or 3 cyl Shay. On a hot day or otherwise.

I have never been convinced that the Chuff Pipe concept is one of "something for nothing". As a result of it being supplied ready installed, 2nd hand, my C-19 is the only loco in my fleet to have one. I have been tempted but have demurred. I didn't realise my C-19 had a chuffer fitted till I ran it the first time and thought, "that's a bit loud I wonder what's wrong". I have always felt if you introduce a restriction/modification to the "breathing" of the loco something has got to give. I will have to leave it to the experts to explain the actualities of what is going on there. Max.

P.S. I allowed a 9 year old girl, among others somewhat older, to run my R/C Lady Anne at a Christmas party a few year ago. Out of all there, solving a 16 mm scale shunting puzzle, she showed greatest natural aptitude to running the loco. The Lady Anne was none the worse for the experience.

Paul M · 18 Aug 2017

I think it's been said before, the loco manufacturers test their products extensively, so modifications can cause the engines characteristics to change and not always to the good!

Disaster with my Roundhouse SloMo fitted Jack

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